Wolfpaw
Banned
All on the tin, brothers and sisters. What could be done to save the Blue Streak missile and what would some effects of such a change be?
WI: Blue Streak not cancelled?
- Thread starter Wolfpaw
- Start date
Change the design so that it doesn't need so long to prepare for launch that was supposedly the main reason why the RAF didn't want it as part of the nuclear deterrent, so no use of LOX. What Blue Streak really needs to survive is for Britain's economy to be performing more like Japan so there's more money to keep the services happy meaning they don't engage in the sort of petty rivalries that saw many projects get canned.
Its probably much easier for it to survive as a space launcher, that means the Germans get their act together on their part of ELDO resulting in a series of successful test launches in the mid 1960's so there isn't the same pressure to kill the project. This could mean Britain has a much more prominent role in ESA and in whatever launcher is subsequently developed, which means that it probably won't be called Ariane. On the military side we could well have been jointly developing delivery systems with the French, their new M51 SLBM is derived from Ariane 5's solid rocket motors so something similar could well be serving with the Royal Navy.
Its probably much easier for it to survive as a space launcher, that means the Germans get their act together on their part of ELDO resulting in a series of successful test launches in the mid 1960's so there isn't the same pressure to kill the project. This could mean Britain has a much more prominent role in ESA and in whatever launcher is subsequently developed, which means that it probably won't be called Ariane. On the military side we could well have been jointly developing delivery systems with the French, their new M51 SLBM is derived from Ariane 5's solid rocket motors so something similar could well be serving with the Royal Navy.
The Blue Streak silos were designed to ride out an attack and launch after the Soviet warheads had gone bang.
If they did use Blue Streak as part of the nuclear deterrent would that be instead of or as well as a submarine launched missile? The Polaris deal was apparently a ridiculous steal for the British so the main enemy in timelines like these, the Treasury, is going to be giving it the beady eye. You've also got the problems of obsolescence once missiles become more accurate and their CEPs go down, having a lot less land than the US to build them, and being much closer to the Soviet airfields and missile launching sites so a greatly reduced warning time.
Your best bet it for it to continue as a civil project possibly along Black Knight and Black Prince lines. If it does manage to keep going then as The Oncoming Storm said getting ELDO to work and have it become a joint European project, without massively improving the UK's economy I can't see them funding it to completion by themselves without a solid commercial prospect and at the time there just wasn't the business. Even nowadays when space is much more active the Ariane 5 programme still needs the ESA to bung it roughly £120 million a year in subsidies to break even. One idea I've read on the boards was that Concorde was never cancelled because the contract had absolutely massive penalty clauses, what if ELDO was contracted in this way so that it was impractical to walk away from? At that point once you have a functional launcher and the costs are being shared it's much harder to cancel it all. You could also maybe try and work in a military spin-off/joint co-operation with France to continue it as a military missile but I'm not sure about that one.
Your best bet it for it to continue as a civil project possibly along Black Knight and Black Prince lines. If it does manage to keep going then as The Oncoming Storm said getting ELDO to work and have it become a joint European project, without massively improving the UK's economy I can't see them funding it to completion by themselves without a solid commercial prospect and at the time there just wasn't the business. Even nowadays when space is much more active the Ariane 5 programme still needs the ESA to bung it roughly £120 million a year in subsidies to break even. One idea I've read on the boards was that Concorde was never cancelled because the contract had absolutely massive penalty clauses, what if ELDO was contracted in this way so that it was impractical to walk away from? At that point once you have a functional launcher and the costs are being shared it's much harder to cancel it all. You could also maybe try and work in a military spin-off/joint co-operation with France to continue it as a military missile but I'm not sure about that one.
I don't think the British would have wanted any missile with fixed launch facilities on UK soil--they would have been quickly destroyed by Russian TR-1 (SS-12 Scaleboard) missiles operating from forward bases in East Germany. That's why the British wanted a more survivable nuclear deterrent, and chose the Polaris missile, which had the range operating from the North Sea and Norwegian Sea to hit many targets in the western Soviet Union.
Indeed, while the French fielded a small number of S-3 IRBM's operating from fixed silos in western France, most of their nuclear forces were Mirage IV's and sub-launched missiles.
Indeed, while the French fielded a small number of S-3 IRBM's operating from fixed silos in western France, most of their nuclear forces were Mirage IV's and sub-launched missiles.
I'm not sure that it changes much, but people do seem to be forgetting Skybolt's role in all this. Remember that Polaris was not really on the table until some time after Blue Streak's cancellation, and that V-Bomber launched Skybolt's were actually the technology chosen over Blue Streak.
That said, in answer to the original question, I'd have to say that it is getting very close to ASB without some drastic technological change. A silo based missile just doesn't make much sense for Britain, and developing any system domestically is going to drive the cost up dramatically, especially when there are directly comparable systems available off the shelf. Really the closest to saving it I can imagine is Britain developing it's own SLBM instead of Polaris, but that isn't going to have anything of significance in common with Blue Streak, and if the UK does end up on its own in terms of deterrence I'd think a Skybolt like system or, even more likely, an air launched supersonic cruise missile is the most likely outcome.
Black Prince might not be so hard to save, but it's a lot of money for a system that just wouldn't have been that good.
That said, in answer to the original question, I'd have to say that it is getting very close to ASB without some drastic technological change. A silo based missile just doesn't make much sense for Britain, and developing any system domestically is going to drive the cost up dramatically, especially when there are directly comparable systems available off the shelf. Really the closest to saving it I can imagine is Britain developing it's own SLBM instead of Polaris, but that isn't going to have anything of significance in common with Blue Streak, and if the UK does end up on its own in terms of deterrence I'd think a Skybolt like system or, even more likely, an air launched supersonic cruise missile is the most likely outcome.
Black Prince might not be so hard to save, but it's a lot of money for a system that just wouldn't have been that good.
I agree, and it seems others were thinking the same thing. Here is a picture of the Z-59, a hypothetical British version of Pluto. I haven't been able to track down the book mentioned as the source, so I can't verify it's accuracy, but the idea might have some merit.
frlmerrin
Banned
Well if Ye Streak had worked properly and it had not been cancelled then I think it inevitable that Great Britain would have landed a party on the moon by 1968 claiming it for their beloved Elizabeth 11. This would lead to a large 200 man moon base in Tranquility by 1969 ready to greet the Americans and endorse their passports and visas. By 1973 the British will have reached Mars witb vessels moving into the asteroid belt. Due to Soviet and American bad sportsmanship over British claims to the Empire beyond the sky. The Bitish build a series of great orbital fortresses in GEO Cromwell, Cunningham, Malborough, Nelson, Gracie Fields and Piccadilly Corner (which was sponsored by Lyons Coffee houses). As the fortresses come on line Harold Wilson informs the Americans and Soviets the have sice months to turn rhier nuclear stock piles into ploug hshares bringing in an age of universal peace on Earth under Beitannia's benign rule. In the comming decades Britain develops Dan Dare, XL5 and Alan Bond type horizontal launch space ships. By 2000 Britain has colonised the whole Solar System with warm comfey colonise serviced by the plumbers of the Queens own loyal Polish plumbers. In 2001 the British encounter God's Con Neumann machine around Jupiter and claim it for the Empire. In 2004 the first star probe powered by the Hawking-Penrose-Kevin Keegan drive goes into orbit around Alpha Centauri. Such a small POD such major consequences! Who would have thought it?
The Ennis memorial space timeline brought to you by Frl Merrin, Merry Xmas.
The Ennis memorial space timeline brought to you by Frl Merrin, Merry Xmas.
Archibald
Banned
Excellent point. You may use H2O2, not only the best oxidizer beside LOX, but also Black Arrow / Black Arrow / Blue Steel oxidizer.
The blue Streak RZ-2 was a licence-build Rocketdyne S-3. switching it to H2O2 shouldn't be too difficult.
As a comparison, Aerojet LR-87 engine used in the Titan was run on LOX/kerosene (Titan 1) then switched to hypergols (Titan II) and even tested on hydrogen (Titan C).
As a bonus, a beneficial effect is that H2O2 provides a "poor's man" staged combustion effect, which translates as a specific impulse in the 335 seconds range, against 300 - 310 for plain old S-3.
It doesn't sounds much of a benefit, but in fact 25 seconds of specific impulse is a big performance boost. The H2O2 Blue Streak may fly some hundred kilometers farther, or carry a heavier warhead.
Well Blue Streak was cancelled in in 1960 and the Polaris Sales Agreement was in 1963 so that's only a three year gap, plus the ELDO project was started up in 1962 using the Black Prince model as a base. As for choosing Skybolt I think that was more to do with saving money since they already had the V bombers and it would of allowed them to squeeze several more years operational service out of them than anything else. If they had looked at things logically they should of seen that SLBMs were the only real way to go, although that likewise argues against a military use for Blue Streak as a land based missile.
Whilst technical difficulties and cost overruns were a part of why the Americans cancelled Skybolt an equally large part was Kennedy trying to force the UK to give up its independent nuclear deterrent and accept dual-key set-up that could only be used with their agreement. Seems they were worried that the UK might get involved in fighting and drag the US into what could become a nuclear conflict, plus proliferation in general. Perhaps if the meeting between Kennedy and Macmillan in Nassau goes badly or Kennedy just decides to dig his heels in and continue to really press for the dual-key MLF idea internationally it leads the British to deciding that they can't be relied on and like France they need to develop a domestically produced independent deterrent. Looking at the projected costs I could see the British government, under strong Treasury influence, approaching the French about possible joint development projects.
That's something else that would probably come from a successful Suez, or that makes Britain become suspicious of America just like the French did IOTL. abc123 has been exploring this in his TL, there's a common space programme and sharing of nuclear technology, among which is that the Force de Frappe gets V-Bombers making it a much more potent deterrent.
Orville_third
Banned
Hmmmm... I'm trying to think of how a European NATO (In a TL where the US never joined, thanks to Presidents Wallace and Taft) would handle nukes. I definitely have plans for a Blue Streak role.
the original Plan includes the deployment of one hundred Blue Streak missile, in underground Silos called K11
the K11 design was Bunker/ICBM Silo of 66 ft diameter and 134 ft deep.
It had to survive a close by 1 megaton hit at 1/2 mile.
and had sustain the Crew and one Blue Streak for 24 hours after Nuclear Attack, for counter attack.
until June 1957 they had located 92 site for K-11 silos, mostly disused road stone quarries on Ministry of Defense properties.
in february 1959
the first sites had to be South of England, all in Suffolk.
also was mention of K11 Silo in Australia to build in the site of ravine to avoid unnecessary excavation.
(is unclear to me, if this K11 to use for launch test or is a Australia part of Blue Streak program)
Source: C.N. HIll, A Vertical Empire, second Edition
according some info at Secret Project forum
in 1959 the last plans was deployment of 60 Blue streak/K11 Silos in UK, Canada, Australia and "Far East site" !
also were proposals for French/British join venture, were the K11 Silos are installed in France territory
on the use of H2O2 aka H.T.P
it had be the Ideal combination, a easy long storage clean ICBM, no so deadly Toxic like Titan II.
simplified rocket Engine and smaller, easier to handle missile in smaller K11 silo.
it would have made a considerable reduction in program cost.
the K11 design was Bunker/ICBM Silo of 66 ft diameter and 134 ft deep.
It had to survive a close by 1 megaton hit at 1/2 mile.
and had sustain the Crew and one Blue Streak for 24 hours after Nuclear Attack, for counter attack.
until June 1957 they had located 92 site for K-11 silos, mostly disused road stone quarries on Ministry of Defense properties.
in february 1959
the first sites had to be South of England, all in Suffolk.
also was mention of K11 Silo in Australia to build in the site of ravine to avoid unnecessary excavation.
(is unclear to me, if this K11 to use for launch test or is a Australia part of Blue Streak program)
Source: C.N. HIll, A Vertical Empire, second Edition
according some info at Secret Project forum
in 1959 the last plans was deployment of 60 Blue streak/K11 Silos in UK, Canada, Australia and "Far East site" !
also were proposals for French/British join venture, were the K11 Silos are installed in France territory
on the use of H2O2 aka H.T.P
it had be the Ideal combination, a easy long storage clean ICBM, no so deadly Toxic like Titan II.
simplified rocket Engine and smaller, easier to handle missile in smaller K11 silo.
it would have made a considerable reduction in program cost.
Last edited:
Archibald
Banned
Oh that sounds good. Before 1959 Dassault dominance can still be overturned, making cooperation easier. In the same vein, Concorde can also be butterflied away and replaced with a more *productive* joint effort. A different Suez outcome is a very interestng POD in the sense late 1956 is one of these crossroads in aerospace history.
Such a small POD such major consequences! Who would have thought it?
The Ennis memorial space timeline brought to you by Frl Merrin, Merry Xmas.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I've been arguing for years that if TSR2 and Concorde could be reactivated and sort of made into a piggy back type thingy, even now it's not too late for the UK to have a viable manned spaceplane project. The way to the stars would be wide open but the fools just don't listen.
The Ennis memorial space timeline brought to you by Frl Merrin, Merry Xmas.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I've been arguing for years that if TSR2 and Concorde could be reactivated and sort of made into a piggy back type thingy, even now it's not too late for the UK to have a viable manned spaceplane project. The way to the stars would be wide open but the fools just don't listen.
Two points to get Blue Streak not cancelled
First: the use of H.T.P. instead of Liquid oxygen
second: that Ministry of Defense had see the coming cancellation of the Skybold Program.
despite the warnings by Expert inside and outside MoD, the Government stick to Skybold
and cancelled allot of programs like Blue Streak and British ALBM design for it.
they refuse to belief that "our American Partners would cancel this program, so vital for Britain"
And then Robert McNamara cancelled the Skybold, forgetting the British Partners completely !
What let into a major crisis, an emergency meeting between parties from the US and Britain was called, leading to the Nassau agreement.
so what if the Ministry of Defense had understand, that at American Partners "a Budget Axe swinging Car manager" is head of Department of Defense?
First: the use of H.T.P. instead of Liquid oxygen
second: that Ministry of Defense had see the coming cancellation of the Skybold Program.
despite the warnings by Expert inside and outside MoD, the Government stick to Skybold
and cancelled allot of programs like Blue Streak and British ALBM design for it.
they refuse to belief that "our American Partners would cancel this program, so vital for Britain"
And then Robert McNamara cancelled the Skybold, forgetting the British Partners completely !
What let into a major crisis, an emergency meeting between parties from the US and Britain was called, leading to the Nassau agreement.
so what if the Ministry of Defense had understand, that at American Partners "a Budget Axe swinging Car manager" is head of Department of Defense?