What if Henry VIII had surviving children by Catherine of Aragon

What if Henry VIII of England had the folowing children by Catherine of Aragon?


Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1511 - d. 1527)


Edward VI of England (b. 1513 - c. 1547 - d. 1571)

1m. Madeleine of Valois (b. 1520 - d. 1537)

- Edward VII of England (b. 1537 - c. 1571 - d. 1594)

2m. Mary of Portugal (b. 1521 - d. 1577)

- Henry Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1540 - d. 1602)

- Catherine Tudor, Queen of France (b. 1542 - d. 1597)

- Mary Tudor, Queen of Spain (b. 1548 - d. 1605)

- William Tudor, Duke of Clarence (b. 1551 - d. 1616)

- Charles Tudor, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1554 - d. 1621)


Mary Tudor, Duchess of Brittany, Dauphine of Viennois, and Duchess of Beja (b. 1516 - d. 1578)

1m. Francis III, Duke of Britanny and Dauphin of Viennois (b. 1518 - d. 1536)

- Mary of Valois (b. 1536 - d. 1569)

2m. Louis, Duke of Beja

- Henry I of Portugal (b. 1541 - d. 1603)

- Edward, Duke of Beja (b. 1545 - d. 1611)

I feel like this has been done to death, but If Henry had a surviving son with Catherine of Aragon, then England would stay Catholic, at the very least. Why does Henry switch from a French alliance to a Portuguese one? Unless those are proxy marriages for a Habsburg alliance, sense there were no available Habsburgs at the time. As for the grandchildren of Henry, it sound pretty unlikely that both of Edward's daughters would marry Kings, especially the Kings of France and Spain, who where rivals. How did Edward pull that one of? Does all of Edward's sons leave issue? If they do that's creating a blueprint for a repeat of the War of the Roses. Finally, why does Mary and Francis both have the same death dates as OTL?

Emperor Constantine said:

I feel like this has been done to death, but If Henry had a surviving son with Catherine of Aragon, then England would stay Catholic, at the very least. Why does Henry switch from a French alliance to a Portuguese one? Unless those are proxy marriages for a Habsburg alliance, sense there were no available Habsburgs at the time. As for the grandchildren of Henry, it sound pretty unlikely that both of Edward's daughters would marry Kings, especially the Kings of France and Spain, who where rivals. How did Edward pull that one of? Does all of Edward's sons leave issue? If they do that's creating a blueprint for a repeat of the War of the Roses. Finally, why does Mary and Francis both have the same death dates as OTL?

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Yes they are proxy marriages for a Habsburg alliance because Henry VIII and Francis I had a falling out. It was a political move by Edward VI to bring in a sort of balance of power. (In OTL it was under the Tudor's that England and later Great Britain began the European Balance of Power) Yes but only Clarence and Gloucester had any sons. Mary had cancer I believe and Francis was still held prisoner by the Spanish.

American Empire said:

Yes they are proxy marriages for a Habsburg alliance because Henry VIII and Francis I had a falling out. It was a political move by Edward VI to bring in a sort of balance of power. (In OTL it was under the Tudor's that England and later Great Britain began the European Balance of Power) Yes but only Clarence and Gloucester had any sons. Mary had cancer I believe and Francis was still held prisoner by the Spanish.

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I thought I recognized proxy marriages. Seriously though, England wasn't that powerful in the 16th century, and considering the Habsburg tendency to marry their cousins/nieces I doubt Spain would accept a English Princess as Queen, especially if her sister married the King of France. Mary's cancer can be butterflied away and Francis was supposedly poisoned, or died of overheating, which can also be butterflied. Did York have a daughter? Cause that's the same thing that happened with Edward III's second son, Lionel of Clarence, and that's where the House of Yorks claim came from.

Emperor Constantine said:

I thought I recognized proxy marriages. Seriously though, England wasn't that powerful in the 16th century, and considering the Habsburg tendency to marry their cousins/nieces I doubt Spain would accept a English Princess as Queen, especially if her sister married the King of France. Mary's cancer can be butterflied away and Francis was supposedly poisoned, or died of overheating, which can also be butterflied. Did York have a daughter? Cause that's the same thing that happened with Edward III's second son, Lionel of Clarence, and that's where the House of Yorks claim came from.

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Okay Mary will live till 1678 instead, but I want Francis to die so Mary could marry Louis. Yes, York had two daughters named Margaret and Mary. Margaret married her cousin William Tudor, 2nd Duke of Clarence and Mary married Charles Tudor, 2nd Duke of Gloucester.

I have a TL where Henry VIII has a surviving son with Anne Bolelyn, though that results in an England that has been denied a chance to create an empire by Spain.

Emperor Constantine said:

I thought I recognized proxy marriages. Seriously though, England wasn't that powerful in the 16th century, and considering the Habsburg tendency to marry their cousins/nieces I doubt Spain would accept a English Princess as Queen, especially if her sister married the King of France. Mary's cancer can be butterflied away and Francis was supposedly poisoned, or died of overheating, which can also be butterflied. Did York have a daughter? Cause that's the same thing that happened with Edward III's second son, Lionel of Clarence, and that's where the House of Yorks claim came from.

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Thinking who this English Princess will have two Spanish grandmothers...
(Catherine of Aragon and her niece Eleanor) and a Portuguese grandfather (who marry thrice and always with Spanish princesses and marry his heir to another Spanish Princess) for me this is a likely match perfectly in the Habsburg and Spanish tradition...

American Empire said:

Okay Mary will live till 1678 instead, but I want Francis to die so Mary could marry Louis. Yes, York had two daughters named Margaret and Mary. Margaret married her cousin William Tudor, 2nd Duke of Clarence and Mary married Charles Tudor, 2nd Duke of Gloucester.

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Someone learned well from the War of Roses...

isabella said:

Thinking who this English Princess will have two Spanish grandmothers...
(Catherine of Aragon and her niece Eleanor) and a Portuguese grandfather (who marry thrice and always with Spanish princesses and marry his heir to another Spanish Princess) for me this is a likely match perfectly in the Habsburg and Spanish tradition...

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I forgot about the Portuguese blood but, in my opinion it would make more sense to marry one of the daughters to the King of Scotland (I think James I would still be King in this scenario) to keep the peace on the Isles. Unless Edward is a very good politician, I doubt trying to play France and the Habsburgs against each other will end well. Perhaps, instead of a Spanish match, Mary Tudor could marry the Emperor instead. It would still be a Habsburg match, but there wasn't as strong of a rivalry between France and the Empire, so it wouldn't be as much a risk to England. On a random note, I wonder what will happen with Anne Boleyn?

Answer to the OP:

England stays Roman-Catholic, as has been said.
Also, the Reformation in Europe is in serious jeopardy. Henry was a vocal opponent of Luther and the reformers (even got the title Defensor Fidei from the pope), and could have committed England on the side of Rome and the RC princes in Schmalkaldic War.
Which could have ended in either a peace favoring the RCs more (more likely), or the downright defeat of the Schmalkaldic League.

Could this have crushed the Reformation in its infancy?
As a Lutheran, I prefer to say "No, because it was God's will!". I don't know, though....

Anne Boleyn was Henry VIII mistress, how else could an Anglo-French alliance have occured?

Edward VII of England (b. 1537 - c. 1571 - d. 1594)

m. Mary of Scotland (b. 1538 - d. 1602)

- Madeleine Tudor, Holy Roman Empress (b. 1559 - d. 1623)

- Catherine Tudor, Tsaritsa of all the Russia's (b. 1563 - d. 1628)

- Edward VIII of England (b. 1566 - c. 1594 - d. 1625)

- Henry Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1568 - d. 1585)


Henry Tudor, Duke of York and Suffolk (b. 1540 - d. 1602)

m. Madeleine Grey (b. 1537 - d. 1561)

- Margaret Tudor, Duchess of Clarence (b. 1557 - d. 1597)

- Mary Tudor, Duchess of Gloucester (b. 1561 - d. 1618)


Catherine Tudor, Queen of France (b. 1542 - d. 1597)

m. Francis II of France (b. 1542 - c. 1574 - d. 1589)


Mary Tudor, Queen of Spain (b. 1548 - d. 1605)

m. Charles II of Spain (b. 1545 - c. 1598 - d. 1608)

- Charles III of Spain (b. 1567 - c. 1608 - d. 1632)

- Edward I of Flanders (b. 1570 - c. 1598 - d. 1642)

- William III of Sicily (b. 1571 - c. 1600 - d. 1637)

- Mary of Spain, Holy Roman Empress (b. 1576 - d. 1629)

- Catherine of Spain, Queen of France (b. 1578 - d. 1654)


William Tudor, 1st Duke of Clarence (b. 1551 - d. 1616)

m. Margaret Tudor (b. 1557 - d. 1597)

- William Tudor, 2nd Duke of Clarence (b. 1576 - d. 1624)

- Henry Tudor, 1st Duke of Suffolk (b. 1579 - d. 1635)

- Margaret Tudor, Duchess of Gloucester (b. 1584 - d. 1647)

- Edward Tudor, 1st Earl of Warwick (b. 1586 - d. 1618)


Charles Tudor, 1st Duke of Gloucester (b. 1554 - d. 1621)

m. Mary Tudor, Duchess of Gloucester (b. 1561 - d. 1618)

- Charles Tudor, 2nd Duke of Gloucester (b. 1582 - d. 1644)

- Mary Tudor, Duchess of Clarence (b. 1584 - d. 1643)

- Elizabeth Tudor, Duchess of Suffolk (b. 1587 - d. 1651)

Why give Henry VIII so many kids? One would be enough, plus ATL Catherine.

I gave Henry VIII 3 kids and the eldest died at 16 without issue.

Superaquaspiderbatman said:

Answer to the OP:

England stays Roman-Catholic, as has been said.
Also, the Reformation in Europe is in serious jeopardy. Henry was a vocal opponent of Luther and the reformers (even got the title Defensor Fidei from the pope), and could have committed England on the side of Rome and the RC princes in Schmalkaldic War.
Which could have ended in either a peace favoring the RCs more (more likely), or the downright defeat of the Schmalkaldic League.

Could this have crushed the Reformation in its infancy?
As a Lutheran, I prefer to say "No, because it was God's will!". I don't know, though....

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As a historian: England with what army?

Elfwine said:

As a historian: England with what army?

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English support could ( = would) have had other faces than troops on the ground. Economic support, for instance.

Superaquaspiderbatman said:

English support could ( = would) have had other faces than troops on the ground. Economic support, for instance.

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Any amount England and Wales could add compared to the resources of Charles V would be minimal.

Especially since I'm not sure why Parliament would be particularly eager to fund this.