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Old December 21st, 2012, 06:23 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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What if FW190C instead of D?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-W...e_developments
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The C model's use of the longer DB 603 engine required more extensive changes to the airframe. As the weight was distributed further forward, the tail of the aircraft had to be lengthened in order to maintain the desired centre of gravity. To test these changes, several examples of otherwise standard 190 As were re-engined with a supercharged DB 603 to experiment with this engine fit, V13 (W.Nr. 0036) with the 1,750 PS 603A, the similar V15 and V16, a 1,800 DB 603 E being fitted to the latter after a time. With this engine, the V16 was able to reach 725 km/h (450 mph) at 6,800 m (22,310 ft), a considerable improvement over the 650 km/h (400 mph) at 5,200 m (17,060 ft) of the basic A models. V18 followed, the first to feature the full high-altitude suite of features, including the pressurized cockpit, longer wings, a 603G engine driving a new four-blade propeller, and a Hirth 9-2281 turbocharger. Unlike the experimental B models, V18 had a cleaner turbocharger installation, running the required piping along the wing root, partially buried in the fillet, and installing both the turbocharger air intake and intercooler in a substantially sized teardrop shaped fairing under the cockpit.[47] This "pouch" led to the "Känguruh" (Kangaroo) nickname for these models. V18 was later modified to the V18/U1, with a "downgraded" 603A engine, but a new DVL turbocharger that improved power to 1,600 PS at an altitude of 10,700 m (35,105 ft). Four additional prototypes based on the V18/U1 followed: V29, V30, V32 and V33.
Also:
Quote:
The first Fw-190V13 with DB603 flew in March 1942. The conversion went smoothly , without any technical problems.
The production of the FW 190C was have to begun in March 1943 and continued until March 1944, with 727 aircraft.
Projected performance with C3 fuel:
600 km/h ( 370 mph) at sea level.
730 km/h ( 454 mph) at 7 km ( 23,000ft)
Armament:
2xMG131 with 250rpg (cowl guns)
2xMG151 with 250 rpg (at wing roots)
1xMK103 with 65rpg (engine cannon)
Option with 2 additional MG151 in outer wings

Later Daimler Benz tested tested the the FW190CF+OW W.Nr. 0038 (fuel grade not given):
Speed OTD: 570 km/h (355 mph)
Speed at 7 km (23,000 ft): 720 km/h (447mph)
DB Conclusion: The performance numbers matches with the FW numbers within 1%.

Eventually the RLM cancelled the FW190C in late 1942 , possibly because of the needs of the Me-410 -program.

The above info is from Dietmar Hermann's book of Fw190D.
So basically the FW190C would have been the equivalent performance of the FW190D only over 1 year earlier.
The only problem was the lack of sufficient DB603s, which were selected as the engine for the ME410.
So perhaps if Daimler-Benz had gotten an upgrade in production capability like Jumo did pre-war there would be sufficient capacity for DB603s.
Or if the Volkswagen plant at Wolfsburg, which never reached capacity and was heavily underutilized until 1944 and then only to 50% capacity, was tasked with aero-engine construction it could have produced Daimler engines.

Hypothetically if sufficient engines were available and the FW190C was in production from March 1943 to give Germany a higher performance fighter capable of operating with performance comparable to the P51D, but a year earlier than the Mustang and more than a year earlier than the historical FW190D, what would the effect be on the air war?

In 1943 Germany still had relative control over her skies during the day and sufficient numbers of experienced pilots to get the full benefit of such a high performance aircraft and no comparable Allied aircraft to escort bombers deep into Germany.

The FW190C had much heavier firepower than the Me109G and could replace the BF110s and Ju88s operating as bomber-killers, which means more aircraft for night fighter forces. It also saves the vulnerable Me410s from daylight bomber-killer service where their slow speed meant they were decimated; they could also then operate as intended as bombers and night fighters/intruders.

The FW190C would have much greater survivability as a fighter at higher altitudes because of its speed, which was much higher than the Me109 models from 1942 on. It would be more dangerous for US bombers to operate during the day and because of the freeing up of BF110s and Ju88s there would be more dangers for the RAF at night. Plus if the ME410s are not used during the day they couple operate in Russia or also at night to fight the RAF.

Plus by the time the P51D shows up in early 1944 the Luftwaffe would have plenty of experience with the model, so Big Week in February and the first half of 1944 wouldn't be nearly as costly for the Luftwaffe. The lack of attrition of the remaining fighter pilots would prevent the collapse of the Luftwaffe by mid-year.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense...ide_.281944.29
Quote:
Doolittle began his campaign to destroy the Luftwaffe during Big Week, from 20–25 February 1944, as part of the European strategic bombing campaign. The USAAF launched Operation Argument, a series of missions against German targets that became known as "Big Week". The planners intended to lure the Luftwaffe into a decisive battle by launching massive attacks on the German aircraft industry. By defeating the Luftwaffe, the Allies would achieve air superiority and the invasion of Europe could proceed. The daylight bombing campaign was also supported by RAF Bomber Command, when they operated against the same targets at night.[101]

The 15AF lost 90 bombers, the 8AF lost 157 bombers and RAF Bomber Command lost another 131 bombers. The 8AFs strength had dropped from 75% to 54%, and the strength of its fighter units had dropped from 72% to 65%.[102] The Luftwaffe's RLV had lost 355 fighters and its operational strength shrank to 50%.[102] The RLV also lost nearly 100 valuable fighter pilots.[103] While Spaatz claimed it as a victory,[103] the production of German fighters dropped only briefly. Nevertheless, the attritional battle would only get worse for the Luftwaffe. After Big Week, air superiority had passed irrevocably to the Allies.[103]

One of the most important developments of "Big Week" was the introduction of the P-51 Mustang. It had the range to escort the USAAF bombers to the target and back again. It also had the performance to engage any piston-engine German fighter in service and the firepower of six Browning .50 in (12.7 mm) AN/M2 machine guns with which to destroy them. The number of Mustangs increased from February 1944 onwards.[104]

The Luftwaffe was put under severe pressure in March–April 1944. According to a report made by Adolf Galland, General der Jagdflieger, on 27 April 1944, 500 aircraft and 400 pilots had been lost in the 10 previous operations.[105] Galland also said that in the previous four months 1,000 pilots had been killed. Galland reported that the enemy outnumbered his fighters between 6:1 and 8:1 and the standard of Allied fighter pilot training was "astonishingly high".[106] Some 25% of the German fighter pilot force had been lost in May 1944 alone, while 50% of the available fighters were also each month from March–May 1944.[107] Galland recognised the Luftwaffe was losing the attrition war and pushed for a focus on quality rather than quantity. Galland stated in his 27 April report, "I would at this moment rather have one Me 262 in action than five Bf 109s. I used to say three 109s, but the situation develops and changes."[106]

The need for technical superiority was evident in the losses in the first half of 1944. In January the Luftwaffe had on strength some 2,283 pilots. It lost some 2,262 between January and May 1944, a 99% loss rate.[108] This helped extend USAAF air superiority over the continent.[109] German losses included experienced personnel. The situation was so serious, Galland remarked:

The strained manpower situation in the air defence of the Reich demands urgently the further bringing up of experienced flying personnel from other arms of the service, in particular for the maintenance of fighting power to the air arm, tried pilots of the ground-attack and bomber units, especially officers suitable as formation leaders, will now also have to be drawn upon.[110]

It was a vicious circle. In order to meet frontline requirements training time was cut. Shorter training hours meant a poorer quality of pilot, which in turn increased the likelihood of a pilot being killed in action. The offensive against Axis oil production was forcing a cut in training time was making things even worse.[111]
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Old December 21st, 2012, 09:28 PM
Just Leo Just Leo is offline
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[QUOTE=wiking;7056840]
The only problem was the lack of sufficient DB603s, which were selected as the engine for the ME410/QUOTE]

Either the Germans weren't too bright, or there were more problems with the DB-603 engines that you aren't revealing. But we've had that talk before.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 09:43 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Leo View Post
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Originally Posted by wiking View Post
The only problem was the lack of sufficient DB603s, which were selected as the engine for the ME410
Either the Germans weren't too bright, or there were more problems with the DB-603 engines that you aren't revealing. But we've had that talk before.
After 1942? I don't know of any and if you have other information that we didn't know before when we talked about an earlier DB603, which is NOT what I am suggesting here, I'm happy to hear it. By 1943 there was especially nothing wrong with the DB603 because it was in full production and service, but there wasn't enough of them for both the FW190 AND the ME410 plus other minor projects. By 1942 though the BD603 was in serial production and was solely hampered by the lack of sufficient Daimler factories, which with a POD pre-war would fix the problem and get us the FW190C without another POD.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 12:49 AM
Mostlyharmless Mostlyharmless is offline
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I suspect that the turbosuperchargers of the Fw190C had the same problem as the jets and the Jumo 004A in particular in that they needed nickel, cobalt or chromium to withstand the high temperature exhaust gasses.

What was possible was a Fw190 powered by a mechanically supercharged DB 603. It might have had significantly better performance than the Fw190A at the altitude of the American bombers but would not have matched the Fw190C and might not have matched the Fw190D. The RLM probably favoured the Fw190D project but the problem delaying the Fw190D was that the Jumo 213 was very unreliable up to very late in 1943 when the firing order was changed to the Rechlin order http://www.enginehistory.org/fo/FO.htm (you have to select Jumo 213).

We don't need a pre-war POD for enough DB 603s to be available. We could imagine a decision to retool the FMO-Flugmotorenwerke Ost from the Jumo 222 to the DB 603 and to fit four to the He 177.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:35 AM
wiking wiking is offline
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Originally Posted by Mostlyharmless View Post
I suspect that the turbosuperchargers of the Fw190C had the same problem as the jets and the Jumo 004A in particular in that they needed nickel, cobalt or chromium to withstand the high temperature exhaust gasses.

What was possible was a Fw190 powered by a mechanically supercharged DB 603. It might have had significantly better performance than the Fw190A at the altitude of the American bombers but would not have matched the Fw190C and might not have matched the Fw190D. The RLM probably favoured the Fw190D project but the problem delaying the Fw190D was that the Jumo 213 was very unreliable up to very late in 1943 when the firing order was changed to the Rechlin order http://www.enginehistory.org/fo/FO.htm (you have to select Jumo 213).

We don't need a pre-war POD for enough DB 603s to be available. We could imagine a decision to retool the FMO-Flugmotorenwerke Ost from the Jumo 222 to the DB 603 and to fit four to the He 177.
The found it for the FW190D, so the materials were there. I don't know where they would come from in 1944 that wasn't there in 1942-3.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 09:15 AM
AdA AdA is offline
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Operational need

In 1942 the critical need for more capable high altitude fighters was not anticipated by the LW. The FW190A was at the time arguably the best fighter in the world, and the Bf109G was expected to hold its own. By the time the threat from the P51 and the griffon powered spitfires, as well as the P47 was apreciated, the oportunity had been lost and the D was selected. What would be need to speed up an introduction of the C would be an earlier understanding of what was about to come.
The shortcut you propose, cancelling the Me410 and using most DB603 production on Fw190C, would be a logical move, if hindsight had been avaiable.
As a footnote, in 43 some people in the LW wanted to adopt the Fiat G56, but the type, apart from being Italian, was very labour intensive to make.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:17 PM
SactoMan101 SactoMan101 is offline
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If the Fw-190C had become operational by fall 1943 with about 400-500 planes in service by early 1944, the Allies would have a MUCH harder time gaining air superiority over Germany, since the Fw-190C would have easily kept up with the P-51B/C models even at altitude.

People forget that the Luftwaffe suffered heavy losses in their fighter corps in the first half of 1944 because the Fw 190A series lacked the altitude performance to combat the P-51B/C at higher altitudes, and the Bf 109G-6 (the most common model of the Bf 109G at the time) topped out only at 387 mph, well below the top speed of the P-51B/C.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:32 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Originally Posted by SactoMan101 View Post
If the Fw-190C had become operational by fall 1943 with about 400-500 planes in service by early 1944, the Allies would have a MUCH harder time gaining air superiority over Germany, since the Fw-190C would have easily kept up with the P-51B/C models even at altitude.

People forget that the Luftwaffe suffered heavy losses in their fighter corps in the first half of 1944 because the Fw 190A series lacked the altitude performance to combat the P-51B/C at higher altitudes, and the Bf 109G-6 (the most common model of the Bf 109G at the time) topped out only at 387 mph, well below the top speed of the P-51B/C.
Which is exactly the reason I'm posting this thread. The Luftwaffe apparently realized there was a need for high altitude FW190s because they ordered three different versions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-W...e_developments
Quote:
Even before the Fw 190 A was put into service, its high-altitude performance was seen to be deficient. In contrast, the Daimler-Benz DB 601 engines used on the Bf 109 featured an advanced fluid-coupled, single stage, single speed supercharger that provided excellent boost across a wide range of altitudes. The 190's short wings also presented a problem at higher altitudes, where they were highly loaded. As a result, the 190 could not compete with the 109 at altitudes above 20,000 ft (6,100 m), which is one reason that the 109 remained in production until the end of the war. This was not a serious concern at the time of introduction, as most combat was taking place at medium altitudes, where the 190 had ample performance.

However, as the air war reached higher altitudes with the widespread introduction of turbocharged US bombers, the need for improved performance became pressing. As a result, GM-1 Nitrous oxide boost was introduced to provide more power at altitude, but this was complex and gave boosted performance for only a short period of time.[45]

High altitude improvements
Tank started looking at ways to address the altitude performance problem early in the program. In 1941, he proposed a number of versions featuring new powerplants, and he suggested using turbochargers in place of superchargers. Three such installations were outlined; the Fw 190 B with a turbocharged BMW 801, the Fw 190 C with a turbocharged Daimler-Benz DB 603, and the Fw 190 D with a supercharged Junkers Jumo 213. The aircraft would also include a pressurized cockpit and other features making them more suitable for high-altitude work. Prototypes for all three models were ordered.[46]

Fw 190 V12 (an A-0) would be outfitted with many of the elements which eventually led to the B series. As it was based on the same BMW 801 engine as the A models, airframe modifications were relatively minor. These included a pressurized cockpit which doubled the panes of glass in the canopy so that hot air could be forced between them to prevent icing, and the addition of the GM-1 nitrous oxide injection system. Several problems were encountered during the machine's flight and ground trials, mostly caused by the pressurisation system for the cockpit, and for this reason the first B-series testbed airframe was retired from active service in late 1942. However, trials on other aircraft continued in early 1943, when the first few Fw 190 A-1s were modified into B-series testbeds. The same aircraft used for testing the pressurized cockpits were also used to test larger wings (20.3 m²/219 ft² versus the standard 18.3 m²/197 ft² wing). This work seriously interfered with the studies on pressurised cockpits. Following these studies, one additional Fw 190 B was built, named the B-1. This aircraft was similar to the B-0, but had slightly different armament. In its initial layout, the B-1 was to be fitted with four 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17s and two 20 mm MG-FFs. One was fitted with two MG 17s, two 20 mm MG 151s and two 20 mm MG-FFs. After the completion of W.Nr. 811, no further Fw 190 B models were ordered.

The C model's use of the longer DB 603 engine required more extensive changes to the airframe. As the weight was distributed further forward, the tail of the aircraft had to be lengthened in order to maintain the desired centre of gravity. To test these changes, several examples of otherwise standard 190 As were re-engined with a supercharged DB 603 to experiment with this engine fit, V13 (W.Nr. 0036) with the 1,750 PS 603A, the similar V15 and V16, a 1,800 DB 603 E being fitted to the latter after a time. With this engine, the V16 was able to reach 725 km/h (450 mph) at 6,800 m (22,310 ft), a considerable improvement over the 650 km/h (400 mph) at 5,200 m (17,060 ft) of the basic A models. V18 followed, the first to feature the full high-altitude suite of features, including the pressurized cockpit, longer wings, a 603G engine driving a new four-blade propeller, and a Hirth 9-2281 turbocharger. Unlike the experimental B models, V18 had a cleaner turbocharger installation, running the required piping along the wing root, partially buried in the fillet, and installing both the turbocharger air intake and intercooler in a substantially sized teardrop shaped fairing under the cockpit.[47] This "pouch" led to the "Känguruh" (Kangaroo) nickname for these models. V18 was later modified to the V18/U1, with a "downgraded" 603A engine, but a new DVL turbocharger that improved power to 1,600 PS at an altitude of 10,700 m (35,105 ft). Four additional prototypes based on the V18/U1 followed: V29, V30, V32 and V33.

Like the C models, the early examples of the D models were built primarily to test fit the Jumo 213 engine to the existing airframe, as the D-0, with plans to move on to definitive high-altitude models later, the D-1 and D-2. The first D-0 prototype was completed in October 1942, consisting of an A-5 airframe with the Jumo 213A engine. Further examples followed, but like the C models the development was stretched out.
The problem was with the engines, as the RLM had earmarked the limited engines to the 'too big to fail' ME410 program that had sucked up so many resources and was now a pet project, rather than the serious focus of what was going on. Goering was still to blame, as he was ignoring the reports of escort fighters reaching deeper into Germany, P47s using drop tanks, and the inadequacy of the Me109 for fighting the coming Allied escorts.
Galland writes about how they knew the problem was coming, but Goering wouldn't listen until it was too late.
I realize the Me410 was meant as a bomber destroyer, but with the FW190C there could have been two bomber-killers for every DB603 engine, rather than 1 aircraft per 2 engines. If the engines were already available in two few numbers, why not make the most of the limited supply?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603
http://www.fockewulf190.net/uk/focke...puk/db603u.htm
According to this link Daimler was wary about ramping production of this engine up too much because they were constantly afraid the RLM would cancel it again, as they had in 1937, only to reactivate the project in 1940.

http://www.fockewulf190.net/uk/focke...eluk/fwcuk.htm
Quote:
The program of Fw190C was officially launched in July 1942, by the taking away and the modification of N° 0036 which was redésigné V13. This prototype, equipped with a DB60Á developing 1750 CV with takeoff was ready to fly in September. It had a long cap which covered an annular radiator, an oil radiator imposing under the cap and the wings had been advanced to rebalance the plane. V13 like V15 and V16 were mainly used to perfect the installation of the engine and were not pressurized. Others were built, the V19 prototypes in V21 prototypes for the Fw190C-1 series, and V25 with V27 for the series Fw190C-2. The latter was to be pressurized and armed with 2xMG152/20 in the roots of wings and 2xMG131 with cap. The V16 prototype equipped with a compressor Daimler Benz "standard G" was tested in Langenhagen at the end of November 1942 and immediately gave satisfaction from the point of view of the performances. It went up to 12200 meters with a climbing speed of 22 m/s and reached 724 Km/h in smooth configuration with 7000 meters. Although promising, these performances were declared unsatisfactory for Technische Amt which suddenly claimed a practical ceiling of 13700 meters.
It looks like ceiling of about 40200 feet was not enough in the minds of the RLM, so they increased the service ceiling to 45000 feet, which resulted in downgraded performance. I don't know why they couldn't accept the excellent performance that was offered between 20k and 40k feet, which would have blunted the losses of 1944, especially if there were over a thousand built, like that of the FW190D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdA View Post
In 1942 the critical need for more capable high altitude fighters was not anticipated by the LW. The FW190A was at the time arguably the best fighter in the world, and the Bf109G was expected to hold its own. By the time the threat from the P51 and the griffon powered spitfires, as well as the P47 was apreciated, the oportunity had been lost and the D was selected. What would be need to speed up an introduction of the C would be an earlier understanding of what was about to come.
The shortcut you propose, cancelling the Me410 and using most DB603 production on Fw190C, would be a logical move, if hindsight had been avaiable.
My reply is all of the above posting.

Edit:
I'm looking at my copy of Green's "War planes of the third reich" and it looks like the RLM was playing favorite with the Jumo 213, so wanted that to work, but once the FW190D came into service they changes their tune and ordered the DB603E installed in some FW190Ds for testing again. The DB603 had better performance than the Jumo, so the plan was that the D14 and D15 FW190s would be re-engined with the DB603 from now on. The bombing got in the way of production plans, but it seems that the Jumo was the inferior engine.
Even the FW team developing the FW190C and D thought that the DB603 was the superior altitude engine with greater development potential, but were overruled by the RLM that wanted to favor Jumo, which at this point was a state-owned institution.

Last edited by wiking; December 22nd, 2012 at 02:54 PM..
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:41 PM
HMS Warspite HMS Warspite is offline
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The change of the FW from a radial BMW engine to the more powerful and higher performing Jumo inline engine was a masterstroke, as it created propably one of the finest piston engined fighters ever to take the sky. The new FW-190-D was intended to operate at high altitudes, which the radial engines could not give it, so the choice was logical to move to an engine that could do the job. The radial enigned FW-190 was primarily to be a fighter-bomber and to cooperate side by side with the pure fighters as the Bf-109 and FW-190-D.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 03:04 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Originally Posted by HMS Warspite View Post
The change of the FW from a radial BMW engine to the more powerful and higher performing Jumo inline engine was a masterstroke, as it created propably one of the finest piston engined fighters ever to take the sky. The new FW-190-D was intended to operate at high altitudes, which the radial engines could not give it, so the choice was logical to move to an engine that could do the job. The radial enigned FW-190 was primarily to be a fighter-bomber and to cooperate side by side with the pure fighters as the Bf-109 and FW-190-D.
Not really, because the Dora didn't appear until it was too late. The Masterstroke would have been to use the DB603 which was the favored engine of the Focke-Wulf development team and later the RLM finally decided to revert to the DB603 in late 1944-early 1945 after its performance was proven to be much better than the Jumo 213, despite being available over a year before the Jumo 213.

Having the DB603 engined FW190, the C-series, would have been the smartest choice, as it was ready to enter production in early spring 1943. By early 1944 when it was really needed, it could have had more than 1000 units in service, which would completely negate the advantages of the P51 series. Potentially with that year of development and combat experience it could also surpass the P51 in performance.

Last edited by wiking; December 22nd, 2012 at 03:16 PM..
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 03:14 PM
cortz#9 cortz#9 is offline
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The Focke Wulf V18 This photo shows off nicely the Four bladed prop, turbocharger piping and the air intake intercooler.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 04:24 PM
AdA AdA is offline
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Operational requirements

The LW demanded extra height performance, sending Kurt Tank back to the drawing board, because it saw the FW190C as a specialised high altitude interceptor rather than as a air superiority fighter, wich placed it in direct competition with the Bf109H. The Jumo 213 was arguably superior to the DB603 as a fighter engine, and the lack of urgency in the request for a Bf109G6 replacement allowed for the lost time btw concept and operational use in the D version.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 05:21 PM
Just Leo Just Leo is offline
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Originally Posted by wiking View Post
After 1942? I don't know of any and if you have other information that we didn't know before when we talked about an earlier DB603, which is NOT what I am suggesting here, I'm happy to hear it. By 1943 there was especially nothing wrong with the DB603 because it was in full production and service, but there wasn't enough of them for both the FW190 AND the ME410 plus other minor projects. By 1942 though the BD603 was in serial production and was solely hampered by the lack of sufficient Daimler factories, which with a POD pre-war would fix the problem and get us the FW190C without another POD.
The Me-410 used nothing but DB-603A engines. All higher powered models suffered an extremely short service life or catastrophic failure due to lubrication and con-rod bearing failures. It was a big engine, with big problems. These problems were being dealt with to an extent deemed acceptable sometime in 1944, just about when Ta-152s started using them. Any reference to an FW using anything but the DB-603A in Luftwaffe service in 1942 is fantasy. The later engines first had to pass the type test, and they hadn't studied.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 05:25 PM
HMS Warspite HMS Warspite is offline
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Originally Posted by wiking View Post
Not really, because the Dora didn't appear until it was too late. The Masterstroke would have been to use the DB603 which was the favored engine of the Focke-Wulf development team and later the RLM finally decided to revert to the DB603 in late 1944-early 1945 after its performance was proven to be much better than the Jumo 213, despite being available over a year before the Jumo 213.

Having the DB603 engined FW190, the C-series, would have been the smartest choice, as it was ready to enter production in early spring 1943. By early 1944 when it was really needed, it could have had more than 1000 units in service, which would completely negate the advantages of the P51 series. Potentially with that year of development and combat experience it could also surpass the P51 in performance.

That might be true at lower to medium altitudes, but the engine was not very well for high altitudes, which necessated the inline engine, which had the better cooling at such levels, also indicating why the Ta-152 was so equipped and not with a lesser radial engine. Anyway, the FW-190-D was the best the germans had in the OTL in the later waryears, although there were never enough of them, as well as skilled pilots to fly them.

The missionprofile for the FW-190-D was to take out the day bombers of the US 8th Airforce, as well as the escorting fighters, which were mainly flying high up in the stratosphere, needing to counter it with high altitude fighters and interceptors, capable of getting higher than the bombers still, diving on to them form above, not from below. This alone asked for (in piston engined fighters at least) inline engined machines, as the radials could not perform at such high altitudes. (Jets and rocket propulsion was even better, but still somewhat experimental.)
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 07:24 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Originally Posted by Just Leo View Post
The Me-410 used nothing but DB-603A engines. All higher powered models suffered an extremely short service life or catastrophic failure due to lubrication and con-rod bearing failures. It was a big engine, with big problems. These problems were being dealt with to an extent deemed acceptable sometime in 1944, just about when Ta-152s started using them. Any reference to an FW using anything but the DB-603A in Luftwaffe service in 1942 is fantasy. The later engines first had to pass the type test, and they hadn't studied.
Do you have some sourcing on that, I'd like to read more. You didn't give any in the last thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Warspite View Post
That might be true at lower to medium altitudes, but the engine was not very well for high altitudes, which necessated the inline engine, which had the better cooling at such levels, also indicating why the Ta-152 was so equipped and not with a lesser radial engine. Anyway, the FW-190-D was the best the germans had in the OTL in the later waryears, although there were never enough of them, as well as skilled pilots to fly them.
Neither the DB603 nor Jumo 213 that the FW190D used were inline engines, they were both inverted V12s. They needed liquid cooling at higher altitudes, which is something the DB603 was better for than the Jumo 213 according to the Focke-Wulf design team working on the high altitude version of the FW190 AND the RLM in late 1944. The limitation of the German radials was obvious from 1941.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Warspite View Post
The missionprofile for the FW-190-D was to take out the day bombers of the US 8th Airforce, as well as the escorting fighters, which were mainly flying high up in the stratosphere, needing to counter it with high altitude fighters and interceptors, capable of getting higher than the bombers still, diving on to them form above, not from below. This alone asked for (in piston engined fighters at least) inline engined machines, as the radials could not perform at such high altitudes. (Jets and rocket propulsion was even better, but still somewhat experimental.)
How high though? The FW190C performed well up to 40,000 feet in 1942 during testing.

Last edited by wiking; December 22nd, 2012 at 07:29 PM..
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  #16  
Old December 22nd, 2012, 08:59 PM
AdA AdA is offline
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The C worked well up to 12200m when tested in 42. Then the LW asked for 13700m, and Tank had to rework the aircraft. By the time he was done the D made more sense, since the Ta152 would be the definitive fighter.
http://fockewulf190.net/fr/fockewf/develfr/fwcfr.htm
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  #17  
Old December 22nd, 2012, 09:34 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdA View Post
The C worked well up to 12200m when tested in 42. Then the LW asked for 13700m, and Tank had to rework the aircraft. By the time he was done the D made more sense, since the Ta152 would be the definitive fighter.
http://fockewulf190.net/fr/fockewf/develfr/fwcfr.htm
There is no reason the DB603 wouldn't have made more sense, as it had more development potential according to Focke-Wulf. The Dora with the Jumo 213 was pushed because the state had a controlling interest in Jumo and Daimler didn't bribe officials to get contracts. As it was the Dora 14 and 15 were converted back to the DB603 and the RLM finally admitted the DB603 was superior to the Jumo 213 up to 40,000 feet, as the link suggested (I posted the english version earlier).

For the >40,000 feet version the later developments of the DB603 were just as good as the Jumo 213E that the TA152 used, but simply was not selected for the role, despite having similar or better performance.
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  #18  
Old December 22nd, 2012, 10:02 PM
AdA AdA is offline
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When I said it made more sense, I meant that Tank regarded the D as a stop gap version, while he worked in the definitive Ta152. The Ta152C, with the DB603, is the final version of what the doctor was planning when he pushed the Fw190C forward in 42. The H E and B version of the Ta152 were meant for Jumo engines, so each engine must of had its merits. In 1944 whatever could be built faster and work would get built. I'd suspect the D got built because FW could get Jumo213 engines easier than DB603.
On the DB603 vs Jumo 213, opinions are varied. didn't you start a thread specifically on the DB603 being avaiable earlier a while back? This thread will probably be a bit of a rerun of some aspects of that one.
Do you have Joachim Dressel and Manfred Greihl book on German fighters and bombers? Seems just like your kind of book.

Last edited by AdA; December 22nd, 2012 at 10:10 PM..
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  #19  
Old December 22nd, 2012, 10:08 PM
wiking wiking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdA View Post
When I said it made more sense, I meant that Tank regarded the D as a stop gap version, while he worked in the definitive Ta152. The Ta152C, with the DB603, is the final version of what the doctor was planning when he pushed the Fw190C forward in 42. In 1944 whatever could be built faster and work would get built.
Okay, I get what you are saying now. Yes, having the earlier FW190C and then TA152 derivative is what I am proposing, as it was available much earlier than the Dora. The TA152 would have been available earlier then too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdA View Post
On the DB603 vs Jumo 213, opinions are varied. didn't you start a thread specifically on the DB603 being avaiable earlier a while back? This thread will probably be a bit of a rerun of some aspects of that one.
I did, but it didn't seem to get very far:
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ighlight=db603

Also JustLeo didn't provide sourcing for the claims about the DB603 problems, which I haven't found confirmed anywhere online so far.

Edit:
the German version of the wiki-entry about the DB603 mentions almost verbatim JustLeo's claim about the DB603, but it is totally unsourced and there is virtually no sourcing for the entire article.

Last edited by wiking; December 22nd, 2012 at 10:15 PM..
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  #20  
Old December 22nd, 2012, 10:24 PM
AdA AdA is offline
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The DB603A was being used in the production version of the Me410 from January 43. But the numbers built were not that great, and DB might not be able to supply the engine in large numbers. At the time they were massively comited to building the DB605. All in all only 1160 Me410 were built until the end of the war, a pretty small number. In that same period they built something like 20 times that number of Bf109, all with DB605 engines...
The ideal would have been for the FW190C to replace the Bf109G. The LW would have the FW190A as a tactical fighter, and the C as a air superiority fighter. Later the Ta152C and H would take over. If the Bf109 was axed after the F series, engine production could be adjusted accordingly and DB concentrate on the 603.
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