What if WW2 Was Delayed until the 50s

Kongzilla · Dec 17, 2012

I was having a conversation with a few of my friends and I was just wondering what would a World War 2 look like if it started in the 50s between Nazi Germany and other people, who would be the sides, what would their militaries look like, what resources would they have available. What strategies would they use. Who would be the ultimate victor. And most importantly how could it happen.

I was thinking about some of the Military stuff.

Tanks might be roughly the same calibre as OTL 50s due to German and Russian fisticuffs in China.

Germany doesn't have a very good Heavy bomber capacity instead relying on Uber V2s to do the heavy lifting and in turn with better rockets they have some of the Best Air defense in the world.

the USSR is going to have the largest army in the world, however they will have the SKS not AKs because they won't have felt the power of the STG44.

So many questions what do you think.

MajorMajor · Dec 17, 2012

This might just be my personal bias showing, but I think the British Army might have by that time adopted the EM-1, the very first bullpup assault rifle, along with Centurions and at least part of the RAF would be equipped with Vampires.

The Kiat · Dec 17, 2012

Finally, we'll have F-84s (because they're cooler than F-86s) escorting B-47s in the sky over Europe. Wouldn't need island hopping in the Pacific for the bombing campaign of Japan (but would still need it for bases to invade) since the B-36 could fly from Alaska.

Well, I don't know if jets would be so advanced, but piston-engine bombers would be more advanced.

MattII · Dec 17, 2012

What's the POD, becuase Hilter was actually on a pretty tight schedule with the war of constantly trying to stave off economic collapse without becoming a visibly totalitarian state.

Fenrir_Angerboda · Dec 17, 2012

Is Japan still around on the Axis side?

Because I would imagine this would mean Japan didn't invade the DEI, and is presumably oil-starved at this point in time.

Bytewave · Dec 17, 2012

MajorMajor said:
This might just be my personal bias showing, but I think the British Army might have by that time adopted the EM-1, the very first bullpup assault rifle, along with Centurions and at least part of the RAF would be equipped with Vampires.

I thought this was brilliant criticism of how these kind of pods tend to inevitably lead to "What happened was the best timing for them, any change favors us mindset", but then I remembered there was actually a plane called Vampire

But I'm not sure 'Out-gimmicking the Nazis' is sound war strategy

Furthermore, France and the UK dont exactly have a stellar track record in this era for maximizing their use of peace time...

Most likely everyone would simply have better weapons and the war would be even more catastrophic, if it occurred anyway. Thats a big IF, though. Circumstances could make it not happen at all, or make it impossible to recognize. Turning the war into a purely German-Soviet affair has some poetic justice attached to it, and many in the 30s felt things were headed that way, even though one way or the other that required sacrificing Poland. "Even more appeasement" may not be an enticing POD, but it could credibly explain delaying the war without any German internal collapse...

seraphim74 · Dec 17, 2012

Easy, tigers. First of all, without WW2 weapons development would probably somewhat slower. It is natural that during a war you expect new weapons to be built quickly and you are willing to pay extra for it (or force designers to work faster) and/or cut some corners. Not to mention the fact that new tactics used in WW2 heavily influenced new weapons designs. E.g. without Blitzkrieg many countires might keep producing tanks designed as infantry support - and some countries migth not design new tanks at all. The same goes with planes and even ships. Radar and sonar might be in earlier development stage, etc.

Originally posted by MatII

What's the POD, becuase Hilter was actually on a pretty tight schedule with the war of constantly trying to stave off economic collapse without becoming a visibly totalitarian state.

I happen to agree. I think the best solution might some kind of internal collapse of Nazi regime (or no Nazi regime at all) in Germany with many German scientists looking for job abroad. Then we have USSR rising to power and some kind of Cold War between West and East until 1950s. A cold war is almost as good for advancement in weapons designs as a hot one.
In short, we need Red Alert scenario.

Magnum · Dec 17, 2012

POD: Hidenburg dies before the 1932 election. The moderates push some else forward, who narrowly defeats Hitler. With a healthy president in office, there is no need to get the nazis into government. However, with them and the communists controlling a large share of Reichstag seats, nothing meaningfull can be done regarding the economy either.

Eventually, the 1937 elections come around and this time Hitler wins. War starts in 1945 or 1946. Not quite the 50s, but close.

Kongzilla · Dec 17, 2012

Hitler was pretty fucking Insane and war mongering so I don't really want him in. The POD might be anywhere in the 30s. What if Hitler died in 36 and someone from the more Weimar influenced section of the Party takes over. Slows down rearmament and opts for a more economically sound strategy. The Nazi party doesn't have to be all about murder and mayhem this time around. Just Racism. The second world war could initially be an all germany and it's allies thing against the Soviets and it just spreads.

To get a lot of OTLs weaponry I was thinking about German backed Nationalist China vs USSR backed Mao. This might lead to the invention of the Assault rifle later like 45-49 and I don't think the British would start to develop their own assault rifle until even later. I think they designed their own because they saw the usefullness of the STG44 same goes with the USSR. Although their tanks will mop the floor with anything the Germans throw against them.

I don't know what would be going on with Japan. Maybe they just attack the Dutch East indies and the French and British fleets decide to embargo their ass, stealing an idea from MSZ the Germans grab the Japanese fleet. Soviets invade Manchuria and the French and British take over Korea and what not. Sounds like fun three way Korean war huh. Axis China-Soviet Manchuria- Allied Japan/South Korea. Asia turns into a bit of a clusterfuck.

I think Jet Aircraft would advance like OTL as they were getting some love pre war. So pretty much there is a bit of a cold war for a decade. And then Bam, Soviets push their luck a little. Germany gives them a bit of a smack and then all out war. I'm not sure about Russias bomber capacity without WW2 but if Germanys Missle capabilities increase exponentially then a lot of Russias western bases might be decimated by Chemical and Biological attacks.

The USA probably won't get involved in any international stuff in that period so you probably won't see the first nukes until the 60s at least.

Is there anything else I'm missing.

Kongzilla · Dec 17, 2012

What would happen if plan Z was acted upon or at least the U-Boat part of it. Would the British be on the ropes in the first year or two since they wouldn't have had experience dealing with u-boats.

Hoist40 · Dec 17, 2012

The Philippines would be an independent country and might not have any US military presence so it would not be a threat to Japan’s southern sea lanes.

superkuf · Dec 17, 2012

Highly unlikely.

a) The Nazis wanted revenge for the Treaty of Versaille and weren't going to wait a whole decade to get it.

b) Germanys economy couldn't take the cost for rearment. No WW2 (and no neighbours to invade and plunder) and Germany goes bankrupt.

c) Germany struck at the right time, when their rearmets were active but their enemies hadn't had time to rearm. Delay the war only a year and Germany will have a far tougher fight.

d) Japan will rape Nanking, become blockaded and go for the "Southern Resource Area", leading to war with UK, France, Australia, Netherlands (and maybe USA) - a war the Japanese can't win. Thereby Japan is out of the fight and the Wallies have earned useful combat experience.

e) Hitler hated "normal" politics. He wanted Big Decisions and Great Gestures, not administer everyday politics. Hitler started to feel old and wanted to start the Big Battle while he was fairly young.

f) The Nazis distrusted higher education and science. School education came to include stuff like weapon cleaning and sewing instead of physics. Nobel laurates fled to other countries. The German capacity to invent new weapons etc. would fall during the 40s, leaving Germany behind in important areas.

wietze · Dec 17, 2012

Kongzilla said:
Hitler was pretty fucking Insane and war mongering so I don't really want him in. The POD might be anywhere in the 30s. What if Hitler died in 36 and someone from the more Weimar influenced section of the Party takes over. Slows down rearmament and opts for a more economically sound strategy. The Nazi party doesn't have to be all about murder and mayhem this time around. Just Racism. The second world war could initially be an all germany and it's allies thing against the Soviets and it just spreads.

To get a lot of OTLs weaponry I was thinking about German backed Nationalist China vs USSR backed Mao. This might lead to the invention of the Assault rifle later like 45-49 and I don't think the British would start to develop their own assault rifle until even later. I think they designed their own because they saw the usefullness of the STG44 same goes with the USSR. Although their tanks will mop the floor with anything the Germans throw against them.

I don't know what would be going on with Japan. Maybe they just attack the Dutch East indies and the French and British fleets decide to embargo their ass, stealing an idea from MSZ the Germans grab the Japanese fleet. Soviets invade Manchuria and the French and British take over Korea and what not. Sounds like fun three way Korean war huh. Axis China-Soviet Manchuria- Allied Japan/South Korea. Asia turns into a bit of a clusterfuck.

I think Jet Aircraft would advance like OTL as they were getting some love pre war. So pretty much there is a bit of a cold war for a decade. And then Bam, Soviets push their luck a little. Germany gives them a bit of a smack and then all out war. I'm not sure about Russias bomber capacity without WW2 but if Germanys Missle capabilities increase exponentially then a lot of Russias western bases might be decimated by Chemical and Biological attacks.

The USA probably won't get involved in any international stuff in that period so you probably won't see the first nukes until the 60s at least.

Is there anything else I'm missing.

for a good pod you could have the '29 bomb attempt on hitler succeed, that way the resulting infighting can reduce the influence of the nazis.

jetengines will go as otl, however i could imagine the turboprop gets out earlier (was developed in hungaria, so no war to interrupt development)

assault rifles might be developed, but i doubt then would have been taken into service. with no threat, they will keep stingy with resources for the military

Flubber · Dec 17, 2012

Kongzilla said:
Hitler was pretty fucking Insane...

No shit, Sherlock. You aren't going to wave away Germany's mounting and serious economic problems simply by killing off Hitler. Those problems became perhaps unsolvable in 1936 when your man-crush Goring was given charge of the Four Year plan and essentially replaced Schacht as the economics minister.

Several other members have suggested that you read Tooze, let me strongly recommend you do so as soon as possible.

Elfwine · Dec 17, 2012

Why in the name of all that's mighty and belligerent would you put Goering of all people in charge of a plan involving the economy?

I mean, his good points include a fairly decent record as a WWI Ace and . . .

um . . .

Didn't he do something that somehow or another helped Hitler in his rise to power?

Still. The only reason I'd want Goering as #2 is if I was the kind of nutball who was terrified of what would happen if I had competent subordinates.

He's not even an especially good Nazi.

Dirk_Pitt · Dec 17, 2012

Elfwine said:
Why in the name of all that's mighty and belligerent would you put Goering of all people in charge of a plan involving the economy?

I mean, his good points include a fairly decent record as a WWI Ace and . . .

um . . .

Didn't he do something that somehow or another helped Hitler in his rise to power?

Still. The only reason I'd want Goering as #2 is if I was the kind of nutball who was terrified of what would happen if I had competent subordinates.

He's not even an especially good Nazi.

Plus he's so fat! There. I said it. What do we do now?

Elfwine · Dec 17, 2012

Dirk_Pitt said:
Plus he's so fat! There. I said it. What do we do now?

Recommend against a career as a Chippendales dancer.

juanml82 · Dec 17, 2012

superkuf said:
Highly unlikely.

a) The Nazis wanted revenge for the Treaty of Versaille and weren't going to wait a whole decade to get it.

b) Germanys economy couldn't take the cost for rearment. No WW2 (and no neighbours to invade and plunder) and Germany goes bankrupt.

c) Germany struck at the right time, when their rearmets were active but their enemies hadn't had time to rearm. Delay the war only a year and Germany will have a far tougher fight.

d) Japan will rape Nanking, become blockaded and go for the "Southern Resource Area", leading to war with UK, France, Australia, Netherlands (and maybe USA) - a war the Japanese can't win. Thereby Japan is out of the fight and the Wallies have earned useful combat experience.

e) Hitler hated "normal" politics. He wanted Big Decisions and Great Gestures, not administer everyday politics. Hitler started to feel old and wanted to start the Big Battle while he was fairly young.

f) The Nazis distrusted higher education and science. School education came to include stuff like weapon cleaning and sewing instead of physics. Nobel laurates fled to other countries. The German capacity to invent new weapons etc. would fall during the 40s, leaving Germany behind in important areas.

Then we need PODs to delay the nazis' rise to power and prevent the second Sino-Japanese war.

What would happen if plan Z was acted upon or at least the U-Boat part of it. Would the British be on the ropes in the first year or two since they wouldn't have had experience dealing with u-boats.

Two things: sonar and type XXI submarines. If the RN does screw up in their ASW tactics, though, the UK will be in serious trouble. OTOH, Germany is likely to have more effective submarines, but in fewer numbers.

Would jet fighters still have limited range by that time frame? If so, I could see jets used as short range interceptors, while prop (or turboprop?) fighters chosen as long range escorts of B29 bombers or the like.

Kongzilla · Dec 17, 2012

Who would be the best as the Leader of the Nazis. I can't actually think of anyone who wouldn't go on a murder spree. Rudolf Hess is probably a no since he wanted to start a war as well. Isn't there any Nazi who might think War is a bad thing.

So it looks like the best option us to delay the Nazi party, who would be the best replacements.

Also I've never heard of Tooze, looks good I'll have to read it.

Elfwine · Dec 17, 2012

Kongzilla said:
Who would be the best as the Leader of the Nazis. I can't actually think of anyone who wouldn't go on a murder spree. Rudolf Hess is probably a no since he wanted to start a war as well. Isn't there any Nazi who might think War is a bad thing.

. . . the whole platform of the Nazi party is based on war, struggle, conquest, and a level of brute stupidity that is embarrassing (as a Germanophile) to think about.