How would YOU equip SADF in the 1980's?

It is a continuation of the thread: 'SADF without the ambargoes".

We have touched on a lot of issues:

US or non US-products
Local production (G5/6, Cheetah)
participation in consortia (Jaguar/Tornado/Typhoon/Leopard II, etc etc)
French vs British

obviously:

Air force, navy and army

It is a bit difficult as the defence spending would not have been there without Apartheid, nor local production to the extent it was done.

So, we have to have a lot of assumptions etc etc. but is it worth trying as a philosophical challenge?

Ivan
 
Well I'm assuming everything goes as per OTL except that there is no Apartheid and no embargo. This means that SA can export defense products and minerals while being able to import oil, improving their economy in the 1980's. I'm also assuming they still have a full nuclear program with potentially a space program, meaning satellites and further missile research.

Army:
The Leopard 2 is produced in SA by Denel and by the 80's they would be using the Leopard 2A4

Armored vehicles are the same as OTL

Artillery is the same except that they use a licensed version of the Astros MLRS in place of the Valkiri

AA is provided by the Roland II, Bloodhound and Cactus SAM systems, Mistral MANPAD, G6 Marksman and Skyguard 35mm gun systems

Small arms are largely the same except that the FN BRG-15 replaces the M2, the L96 is bought for snipers and special forces, a tripod and vehicle mounted Ingwe replaces the Milan, and the P226 is the standard service pistol

The Rooivalk comes into service earlier because of more funding and export orders, the AS532 is built by Atlas to replace the Puma, and the Gazelle/Bo-105 replace the Alouettes

Air Force:
The Mirage 2000 is built by Atlas to replace the Mirage III and Mirage F1, and is integrated with local weapons and avionics

Atlas joins the Panavia consortium and gets the Tornado to replace the Canberra and Buccaneer, and is integrated with local weapons

The Hawk and PC-7 are used as per OTL

The C-130 and C-160 are used as per OTL, with either the G.222 or C-212 to slot below the C-160

Atlas becomes an Airbus partner and gets the A310 for VIP/Presidential transport, tanker, and AWACS with the IAI Phalcon

Various other small aircraft for light transport, liason, and VIP transport

Navy:
Type 42 or MEKO for destroyer/heavy frigate role with local systems and weapons like a naval G6, Exocets, Barak I and Cactus SAMs

Lighter frigate or corvette for patrol and ASW

Lynx and AS532 SC for naval helicopters

Atlantiques or Nimrods for MPA

Exocet batteries for coastal defense

Agosta or Type 209 SSK's for the sub fleet
 
Army

Main battle tank job goes to the Merkava, simply because in this world I can see the Israelis splitting the cost of developing the tank with other nations and thus allowing license-production. I do also think that Israel and South Africa would be likely to agree to work out a solution to allow the SA variant to have most of the good stuff of the versions used by the IDF. The SA Army will probably also want these to be modified to be quicker on the open road, though that's not easy with tracked vehicles to do so reliably.

For APCs, the Ratel/Rooikat combination would be the sharp edge, and a mighty fine one. By the end of the 1980s, assuming prosperity reigns, I think the Eland armored car and the Buffel APC will be out of service by that point (the Buffel may never have been built), but the Casspir and Nyala series of mine-proof vehicles would be there. The Rooikats in SADF service would probably pack the 76mm gun for its punching ability and would probably also be equipped with ATGMs. The Ratel would probably be in service for a long time, as it is a good design, though the Ratel 60 and Ratel 90 would probably not be built for the same reason as the Buffel - with the Rooikat around, there isn't much need. The ZT-3 variant and its Ingwe ATGMs would be in service.

I agree with Have Blue on the artillery used, though I suspect they would focus on the self-propelled guns for heavy artillery and develop a lighter version of the G5 to allow for better mobility, either that or mount it on a truck to be able to keep up with the armored vehicles if needed. The Astros II may well have been developed by both Brazil and South Africa together instead of the parallel arrangements of OTL. The G7 105mm artillery weapon may well have been built by now, too. Have Blue I also think is right for the AA guns, with SA probably having retired the Bofors guns. I doubt the Roland would see SA service, I'd figure the Crotale would handle that need, and the G6 Skyguards would probably be built from existing Oerlikon 35mm guns. I'm on the fence whether Mistral or Skyguard would end up ultimately equipping the SADF.

Small arms would probably be a little different. I can see for a 1980s timeline OTL working, but I would imagine that something newer than the R4/R5/R6 will eventually be on the cards, with the CR-21, which is effectively a bullpup R4, being a possibility. (It might even be possible in the timeframe as a weapon for armored vehicle crews.) I would imagine that SA would do better than the BXP for a submachine gun (Uzi, MP5 or maybe even UMP, perhaps?) and the Neostead would probably be used as Army equipment. There would probably be an automatic grenade launcher in the equipment list as well. I differ with Have Blue on the pistol front - the Z88 and SP1 (which would replace the Z88) are quite good for the job.

The Rooivalk would be widely in service and probably have been exported a few times. The Alouette III would be replaced in the 1980s and early 1990s by the Aerospatiale Dolphin, while Atlas' upgrade of the Puma would be around for a while. The Super Frelons go to retirement when not needed as they are not powerful enough for the hot and high conditions the SA Army usually dealt with. If the SA Army needs heavy choppers, go with the tired, tested and tough as an old boot Chinook.

Air Force


The Mirage IIIs will need to be replaced by the 1980s, and I don't think the Mirage 2000 is enough of an improvement to justify it. As I said in the original thread, I still think the SAAF would look for a good light fighter and a ground attack plane. The ground attack plane would go to the Tornado or Jaguar for sure, but I'm still thinking the fighter job would go to the Americans, as they produce the best options available at that point. The Tomcat and Eagle are too expensive, which leaves the Hornet or Fighting Falcon, and with the ground-attack job done by the Tornado, I'd go with the Hornet for that. The Mirage F1AZ and F1CZ will be around for a while, but the Atlas Cheetah wouldn't happen and the Tornado would replace the Buccaneer and Canberra. They might assign the F1AZ to close-air support duties and retire a number of the Atlas Impalas to compensate for this, but there would remain some Impalas. One option would be buying a small number of Tornados for bigger jobs and using the Jaguar to replace the Impala and many of the Mirage IIIs.

Hawk and PC-7 are probably gonna happen as IOTL because they are the best tools for the job, and in a pinch the former could be armed for combat as the Impalas were.

For transport planes, they need to replace the C-47 and the C-160 was getting old by the 1980s. I still think the idea of buying the RAF's Belfasts has merit, because it could be done for peanuts and allow a bumping of jobs - the Belfast bumps the C-130, which then bumps the C-160 to lower jobs and bumps the C-47 and C-54 out of service, along with other older planes. The Boeing 707 would enter service as IOTL (early 1980s) but there would probably be more of them and an army with mobility needs as the SADF is would probably also call on some ex-SAA 747s at one point, too. Involvement in the Airbus consortium means that the 707s and 747s would be replaced in the 1990s by A310s or A330s, and the A400M would be the most likely candidate in the 2000s to replace the C-160, Belfast and Hercules. The A310 Phalcon idea is quite likely too, as would be a maritime patrol version of the A310 to replace the very-antiquated Shackleton and C-47TP for maritime patrol. (Though in this case, the Nimrod, Atlantique and Orion are also possibilities.) The small plane fleet is probably mostly as OTL, though I'd bet on the Dassault Falcons being replaced instead of the HS 125s that the SAAF retired in the early 2000s.

Navy


This one gets hard. The Rothesay-class frigates and supply ship Tafelberg are way beyond antiques by the 1980s, but I'm not convinced the Type 42 would be the best answer - I still think the best option available at the time considering the times would be for the SAN to pick up the four Kidd-class destroyers that were ordered by Iran but never delivered. The USN had to convince Carter to take them and they got sold off quick at the end of the Cold War, which to me says that if the SAN made an offer it would probably have been taken, and the SA Navy has the technical ability to make major changes, and these would have probably included the addition of a naval G5 for the main guns, Exocets in place of Harpoons, Lynx helicopters and probably Umkhonto-IR missiles. The SAS Drakensberg and a couple more like it would replace the Tafelberg in the 1980s.

This POD also goes before the Sa'ar 4s were built in South Africa, and so they wouldn't happen here, which would force a light frigate and corvette class to be built. The SAN ordered two D'Estienne d'Orves class ships from France in the 1970s (these were never delivered because of the embargo and were ultimately sold to Argentina), and I figure a couple (2-4) more of these would be delivered as well. For light frigates the option to me is easy - the British Type 22, though the SA Navy would probably both want to build a couple of these in South Africa (the Sandock Austal shipyards in Durban can do this) and they'll probably want the same guns on them as the Kidds. All ships would use the Lynx for ASW duties, though the Drakensbergs may well be a user for those Super Frelons retired by the Army to supply the ships.

The Agosta 90 would be the most likely SSK candidate, though Type 209s are a possibility. If Britain is really in on the act and you hold off on subs long enough, you might also seek Upholders as a possibility as well.
 
This is the most comprehensive analysis of the SADF requirements I have ever seen.

Good views on either Leopard II or Merkava. However, isn't the Merkava filled with "super secret" Israeli developments, not for export?

I also see the ratel as a clear winner. I do see the Rooikat as a bit of a hybrid. I would rather chuck the Rooikat and stick to a standardised Ratel line.

I know the Rooikat thinking came about based on the border wars where the Ratel needed more "punch". That said, rather than having more equipment in (any) field, give the Ratel the punch.

Rooivalk is a difficult one. Is it capable enough to stand up aginst AgustaWestland 129 which got the Turkish contract? Without serious exports, I am not sure it can stay ahead.

Would NH-90 have a role to play?

I fully see the Tornado/Jaguar comnbination.

Fighters? Typhoon is too expensive I think. Gripen is not a bad choice in that regards. 2nd hand F-5 could do the trick as well.

It is amazing to see that it is nearly all Europe, not US.

Could there be a consortium for a combined G6/P-2000?


Ivan
 
This is the most comprehensive analysis of the SADF requirements I have ever seen.

Good views on either Leopard II or Merkava. However, isn't the Merkava filled with "super secret" Israeli developments, not for export?
In my personal opinion, I think the Shir 2's destined for Iran, essentially a Challenger I, would be best as they could be bought for peanuts and local upgrades would keep them formidable for some time.

I also see the ratel as a clear winner. I do see the Rooikat as a bit of a hybrid. I would rather chuck the Rooikat and stick to a standardised Ratel line.
I actually like the Rooikat and with upgrades to its armor and weaponry, could do quite well on the export market as a light tank or MBT supplement.

I know the Rooikat thinking came about based on the border wars where the Ratel needed more "punch". That said, rather than having more equipment in (any) field, give the Ratel the punch.
The Ratel ZT3 with the Ingwe was that punch exactly.

Rooivalk is a difficult one. Is it capable enough to stand up aginst AgustaWestland 129 which got the Turkish contract? Without serious exports, I am not sure it can stay ahead.
Well I think it needs upgrades first. A new engine and rotor would do it good as it used the old Puma style rotors and engines. I would give it the Rolls-Royce RTM322 and bearingless, hingeless rotors, composite rotor blades, wingtip launch rails for A-Darter or similar AAM, and a Denel 35mm cannon in place of the rather inadequate 20mmm F2. I see Brazil, Canada, Australia, UK, India, Malaysia, Oman and UAE as potential customers while its chances of winning the Turkish contract are much greater now.

Would NH-90 have a role to play?
In the late 90's or 2000's when the Puma needs a replacement, they could choose the NH90 although I see them going for the EC725 out of commonality.

I fully see the Tornado/Jaguar comnbination.
The Tornado is far more likely IMHO.

Fighters? Typhoon is too expensive I think. Gripen is not a bad choice in that regards. 2nd hand F-5 could do the trick as well.
If they join the Eurofighter consortium and it goes into service as planned (1990's) I think it would be a good fit. Twin engined, decent range and not too big for their needs. I do dream of a Mirage 4000 in SAAF camo often though.

It is amazing to see that it is nearly all Europe, not US.
They never had really good ties with the US in any way.

Could there be a consortium for a combined G6/P-2000?
Not likely IMO as they are built for different conditions. Maybe Denel helping out with the gun design but that's about it.


Ivan

I could also see further development of their nuclear and space programs. By now they could have the RSA 5 ICBM in service and could be designing and launching satellites as well, maybe even sending astronauts to the ISS.
 

Riain

Banned
Personally I wonder that without the embargo would SA need such a powerful armed forces? I would have thought that one reason SA had to fight wars was because of isolation its nieghbours thought it could challenge SA without censure. If SA is a standard western ally it would get all sorts of diplomatic and economic support and its enemies get all sorts of sanctions.
 
Personally I wonder that without the embargo would SA need such a powerful armed forces? I would have thought that one reason SA had to fight wars was because of isolation its nieghbours thought it could challenge SA without censure. If SA is a standard western ally it would get all sorts of diplomatic and economic support and its enemies get all sorts of sanctions.

I agree, and my thought on this was that here decolonization goes pretty much as OTL, but South Africa hangs on until it becomes clear in the late 1960s and early 1970s that apartheid has started to stop South Africa's economic and social growth, and it starts being in stages dismantled through the 1970s and into the 1980s. Angola and Mozambique fall to communists, and South Africa's 1975-76 incursion into Angola also goes about as well as OTL. They withdraw afterwards however, focusing on improving their country, but the African communist nations turn uglier towards SA in the 1970s and 1980s. Rhodesia becomes a full-scale battleground where the Rhodesians (and eventually ZIPRA as well) spend the 1970s and 1980s fighting a low-intensity conflict that eventually forces Pretoria to get involved.

By the 1980s, SA is growing economically and both political rights and standards of living for black South Africans are growing quite quickly, but by now Rhodesia is a mess, Botswana is merely trying to stay clear and the Cubans in Africa, backed up by Moscow and the nations themselves, are in what amounts to a bitter Cold War with South Africa.
 
I would imagine that SA would still require a reasonable military even if no formal apartheid, say in a UP wins 48 scenario.

There will still be the Cold War tensions, Korea etc, Britain is still going to need to pull back to the North Atlantic as we, decolonisation will still be on the cards, Portugal will still want to fight it out in the colonies and Rhodesia would be tempted to do so too. Although I'm not so sure UDI would happen as per OTL in this scenario, without knowing what SA would look like at the time.

I would imagine a more friendly, less paranoid SA would probably sit somewhere between NZ and Australia in terms of defence spending and orientation. Probably a lot closer to the latter than the former, especially as the 1960s unfold.
 
for the army: not much to add what the others said, if there never is an embargo i could see them purchase Leopard 1 tanks (new or 2nd hand) to replace the centurions(so no olifant). Which later very likely would be replaced/supplemented by leo 2s. Rooivalk would still be built and imo probably could have been sold to the Netherlands, especially if SA co-builds the F16 with them. As for the NH90, too expensive for the performance, the Merlin would be a much better choice.


Airforce: i could see them keep some of the buccaneers in service due to their good strike capabilities and long range. Don't think tornado is realistic though, seems very much overkill. F16 would be a good option especially with so many European countries also using it. They might even co-build it together those countries. Jaguar would also be an option, its a good light strike aircraft.


Navy:
With no boycot, the SAN might end up with Dutch Walrus subs instead of the german ones. During the late 90s the Netherlands also sold off several Kortenaer class frigates, and some of them might end up in SA. But with regards to ships, especially the end of the cold war will be a wildcard, because so many surplus ships available. SA might even have a go at buying some surplus former Volksmarine (DDR) ships


other: under these conditions i could see SA becoming a partner of the ESA much earlier
 
Right no embargo in place from 1960s through to late 1980s then what else do we assume? Is this SA one of majority rule? Reason being that defence spending and revenues will change things immensely.

Now assume similar levels of finance available and defence policy stays as it was ie NATOs junior partner in the southern seas then you'd go the following:

All 6 ASW frigates/destroyers replaced during the mid to late 1970s by a Yarrow design or at the outside the Dutch Kortnear class. In no way would they have ever operated the Kidd class. The Kidds are WAY beyond most countries ability to either a, afford, or b, have capability and personnel to operate. you are all aware that manpower for SAN was only around 4000?
Match the frigate force with 2 light ASW corvettes which replaced their 2 WW2 vintage dispatch vessels, so yup they keep the 2 A69s. They also get 2 fleet auxiliaries.
In early 1980s the SA get 12 Lynx helicopters to replace the old Wasps, they get Sea Skua, Stingray and various other elements at the same time.
SAN buy a half dozen Peacock style patrol vessels replacing the old SBD's, others I'd go for 10 Tripartate MCMV as the hunt class are too expensive. Might try and get a smaller survey vessel to work with the SAN,s Larger survey ship which was basically a UK Herald class.
SAAF well I'd go for around 30 odd Jaguars to replace any idea of getting the mIrage F1AZ and to help replace Canberras. I wouldn't look at getting shot of the buccaneers as they are robust and in any case I have 2 squadrons worth as batch 2 went through in this scenario. For air superiority I do get the f18 in the 1980s to replace all my Mirage fighters, sooooo 2 sqdns jAguar, 2 sqdns Bucaneer, 2 sqdns F18. I have an FTS with Hawk, another with PC7, transports then 2 sqdns C130, 1 strategic sqdn with refuel capable type, couple light sqdns, for maritime patrol then its hs748 Coastguarder aka Nimrod lite. That's quite enough by any stretch.
SAA. Then you've got chieftains replacing the centurions, perhaps instead of FV432 they have instead gone a la Francais with VAB...or more likely Pirahna, remember no blockade so no need to go for ratel. For AD then they have Bloodhound, later on rapier and blowpipe. Maybe mistral later. Cactus/Crotale never in SA service in this case. Artillery well maybe a few M109s, but mainly Light gun aka L118 or M119 depending who you are. Don't think they will have bothered with rockets intil MLRS arrives-why? Because they are basically operating STANAg kit.
Thoughts?
 
Subs, apart from getting Oberons in the 1970s as they would have preferred then yup I would go with Walrus class, after all they are the nearest option.
 
Right no embargo in place from 1960s through to late 1980s then what else do we assume? Is this SA one of majority rule? Reason being that defence spending and revenues will change things immensely.

My scenario was the one above. SA is moving towards majority rule, has formally integrated Namibia into SA (full voting and civil rights included) and has strong economic performance until the early 1970s. The 70s are a lost decade so to speak, but as SA moves to build a nation beyond apartheid in the late 70s and through the 80s the country's economic performance improves a lot. The gradual pull-apart of apartheid means no massive rise in black birth rates in the 1970s and no "liberation before education" campaigns, so SA's economic performance by the end of the 1980s is far, far better than OTL. This continues through the 1990s as well. South Africa circa 2010 in my scenario looks fairly similar to OTL Turkey, a newly-industrialized country with a unemployment rate of about 10%, a strong industrial sector and is the leading investor and developer for most of Africa.

All 6 ASW frigates/destroyers replaced during the mid to late 1970s by a Yarrow design or at the outside the Dutch Kortnear class. In no way would they have ever operated the Kidd class. The Kidds are WAY beyond most countries ability to either a, afford, or b, have capability and personnel to operate. you are all aware that manpower for SAN was only around 4000?

I am aware, but the country's better economic performance means they can expand the Navy's manpower and not break the bank, and the Kidds are only available because they would be highly-capable ships available at a massive discount from new. The Kidd has a crew of 360, substantial but against 240 for the Rothesay class its not as ridiculous of a growth as it at first seems, and USN ships tend in general to be considerably overmanned - I figure you could run a Kidd on about 320, which makes it easier still. It is an enormous jump in capability, but I think if the SAN was to look at the additional costs versus the additional capability they'd jump at it.

Match the frigate force with 2 light ASW corvettes which replaced their 2 WW2 vintage dispatch vessels, so yup they keep the 2 A69s. They also get 2 fleet auxiliaries.

On this we are in some agreement.

I'm anticipating the SAN having for a Navy the four Kidds as the flagships, four Type 22s that are similar to the Batch 3s of the Royal Navy, four to six of the A69s, three or four Drakensberg class supply ships and five submarines, with two Agostas and three Daphne class ships. The Daphnes are retired in the 1990s and replaced, and the Agostas would probably have followed by the early to mid 2000s. It's a massive growth in Navy capability from OTL, but SA here will have far more money spend than OTL, a rather longer coastline to defend and more wish to be able to use their Navy to help their guys fighting if necessary.

SAAF well I'd go for around 30 odd Jaguars to replace any idea of getting the mIrage F1AZ and to help replace Canberras. I wouldn't look at getting shot of the buccaneers as they are robust and in any case I have 2 squadrons worth as batch 2 went through in this scenario. For air superiority I do get the f18 in the 1980s to replace all my Mirage fighters, sooooo 2 sqdns jAguar, 2 sqdns Bucaneer, 2 sqdns F18. I have an FTS with Hawk, another with PC7, transports then 2 sqdns C130, 1 strategic sqdn with refuel capable type, couple light sqdns, for maritime patrol then its hs748 Coastguarder aka Nimrod lite. That's quite enough by any stretch.

We're clearly along the same lines here, though I wouldn't keep the Bucc because its not well-suited to South Africa - remember that it needed RATO rockets to be able to operate from AFB Waterkloof near Pretoria. The Bucc was never well-suited to hot and high conditions, and as this is the SAAF's bread and butter I would not bother keeping the Bucc at all unless one can come up with a considerably more powerful Spey for it. For the coastguarder, why bother with it? Sure, its cheap, but its a massive step down in range from what its replacing and SA would by this point be able to have the best such patrol planes. If they are buying from Britain, Nimrods would probably be on deck, and as the SAAF's Shackletons ranged as far out as Antarctica, they'll probably want the Nimrod's longer legs. I went with A310 MPA because by the time they are needed Atlas would be an Airbus partner and Maritime Patrol Planes would be one of the later replacement plans, probably after the Shackletons have run out of airframe life in mid 1980s.

SAA. Then you've got chieftains replacing the centurions, perhaps instead of FV432 they have instead gone a la Francais with VAB...or more likely Pirahna, remember no blockade so no need to go for ratel. For AD then they have Bloodhound, later on rapier and blowpipe. Maybe mistral later. Cactus/Crotale never in SA service in this case. Artillery well maybe a few M109s, but mainly Light gun aka L118 or M119 depending who you are. Don't think they will have bothered with rockets intil MLRS arrives-why? Because they are basically operating STANAg kit.
Thoughts?

South Africa's domestic arms industry was developed because of the embargo and was very much alive by the 1970s, and more to the point why would a quite nationalistic nation (as apartheid-era South Africa always was) go for equipment made abroad when stuff made at home that is just as good is available? Hence, the Ratel goes into SA Army service and perhaps even gets a few export customers. M109s would probably never see SA service for the same reason, more to the point SA got their fantastic gun technology because Gerald Bull couldn't find customers for his "Full Bore" artillery gun designs. The Bateleur and Valkiri-22 were butterflied in my world by the Astros II, for which they would have worked with the Brazilians.

Subs, apart from getting Oberons in the 1970s as they would have preferred then yup I would go with Walrus class, after all they are the nearest option.

South Africa ordered Agostas from Spain in the 1970s which were not delivered because of the embargo. Oberons would be beyond their buy-by date by the 1970s, the Agosta and Type 209 would be more capable for the same price tag.
 
Well now that we've looked at what the SADF would be like in the 1980's, we should move on to what they would currently look like following this TL. The Mann is right in saying they would be like OTL Turkey although I suspect they would have a better economy due to defense and mineral exports as well as being the financial center of Africa. This my opinion but if you think I missed something or want to add anything feel free.

Army:
I think they would have gotten the Challenger 1's destined for Iran (Shir 2) to replace the Centurion and by now I could see them being replaced by the Challenger 2. It would be assembled locally and have the Rheinmetall U55 in place of the L30, MTU power pack, Saab LEDS-150 APS and FN BRG-15's in place of the 7.62mm MG's currently mounted.

The Rooikat would continue to be produced with improved versions entering service. These would have upgraded armor, APS, a new power pack, ATGM's and a new main gun like the Ruag L50 120mm compact tank gun. The Ratel would be replaced by the Patria AMV as in OTL, and most of South Africa's modern armored vehicles would be in service.

Artillery is the same but in improved versions, meaning Astros 2020, G6-52 ER, G5-2000 and the G7.

Air defense equipment would consist of the Oerlikon 35mm guns, G6 Marksman and Starstreak for short range air defense. Medium range air defense would be provided by the Umkhonto while long range air defense would be provided by either the Aster or Barak-8. ABM capability consists of the Arrow-2.

The Puma would have been replaced by either the NH90 or EC725 because the AW101 lacks hot and high performance, being designed for sea level operations. Heavy lift is still the Chinook, but the CH-47F would be in service. In the future I could see them getting the Eurocopter HTH to replace it. Either the EC635 or the AS550 would be their scout and light attack helicopters. The Rooivalk will have been upgraded by now. I say the Rolls-Royce RTM322 engines with composite rotor blades, bearing-less hinge-less rotors, mast mounted fire control radar a la Apache, wing-tip AAM launch rails and a Denel 35mm cannon in place of the F2.

As far as small arms, the CR-21 would be in service, as would the SP1, SS77, mini SS, Neostead 2000, Y3 AGL, Amsel Striker and the Milkor MGL. The FN-BRG-15 replaces the M2 and the NTW-20 gets a chambering for the same 15mm round, a new SMG or PDW in place of the BXP like the P90 or UMP-9, an RPG-7 replacement in the AT4 or SMAW and various Accuracy International rifles for snipers and special forces.

Air Force:
I could see SA joining the Eurofighter consortium to replace whatever fighter they picked to replace the Mirage F1 and Cheetah. With more funding and less bickering it enters service in the 90's and has an AESA radar, uprated engines with TVC, full multirole capability and CFT's by now. Local weapons and avionics are added to the design and they get to produce components for the jet.

The Tornados they bought will have been upgraded by now. Newer avionics, local weapons, RAM and EJ2000's are probable.

The Hawk 132 and PC-21 replace their older trainers.

Since they are an Airbus partner they will have gotten the A400M, this time on schedule and with not so many cost over runs. The C-235 and C-295 fulfill the light and medium transport role. The A310 Phalcon is still in service, maybe the A310 tanker too although that could be replaced by the A330 MRTT. The Presidential aircraft is probably an A350 or A380. Various other small aircraft fulfill other transport roles.

Navy:
The Kidd class will get a final upgrade with new radars and weapons. These will be replaced by a new class of frigate or destroyer in the near future. I was thinking they could get a FREMM or T45 based ship and put whatever they want on it. Sampson or Elta 2248, Aster or Barak-8, Umkhonto, naval G6, cruise missiles, 35mm Defender CIWS, RBS-15's and MU90 torpedoes.

A new stealthy frigate or corvette to slot below their newer destroyer.

A Mistral or Juan Carlos class type ship, although I don't know how likely this is.

A320 MPA to replace the Atlantique and the AW159 Lynx Wildcat to replace the original Lynx on their ships.

The Scorpene/Marlin or Type 214/216 are the most likely candidates for a new SSK. The S80 is another possibility as well.

The RBS-15 MK.IV replaces the Exocet on ships, aircraft and in land based coastal defense.
 
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amphibulous

Banned
Why does the SADF need MBTs and state of the art fighters? Surely its main task is better served with clubs, coshes, assault rifles, wipeclean tables with thick leather straps, pliars, dental drills, and various electrical devices?
 
Why does the SADF need MBTs and state of the art fighters? Surely its main task is better served with clubs, coshes, assault rifles, wipeclean tables with thick leather straps, pliars, dental drills, and various electrical devices?

Uhhhh....you're kinda missing the point, I think. :confused:
 
I could see the G-5 or an equivalent weapon in terms of capabilities still being developed assuming the SADF's opponents still use the M-46 130mm and nothing else the West has during the Cold War has a range to equal the M-46. Without the embargo you might see other Western countries adopt this alt G-5 since nobody had a weapon to beat the M-46 during the late Cold War. Maybe even the US considering the problems a few M-46s gave during Vietnam.
 
The overall scenario I used for mine:

First point I think bears asking is how big the country's economy and population are, and whether a considerable drawdown of the forces would result, and what brought it all together.

My scenario starts with a National Party win in 1948 and South African units fighting with distinction in Korea. The NP decides there is nothing to gain by antagonizing Britain and so the loud rhetoric doesn't come to pass as much, and the NP decides its better to allow more white immigration than OTL, thus somewhat swelling the white population. A prospering economy in the 1950s and 1960s means that the NP has little difficulty keeping power, though by the 1960s the work of groups like the ANC is starting to make an impact on the monolith of apartheid. The ANC does not respond to the Sharpeville massacre with violence (at first) and stays a legal organization in the early 1960s. Mandela joins Tambo, Mbeki, Slovo and the others in Zambia in 1965 and as such his imprisonment becomes much less of a cause celebre for the anti-apartheid forces. The 1960 Census reports whites as 23.2% of the population (OTL was 19.3%) in the Republic of South Africa.

South West Africa is formally annexed by South Africa upon the formation of the Republic of South Africa in 1961. South Africa's sky-high birth rate is felled rapidly by prosperity in the 1960s, which slows the nation's population growth during that time. Hendrik Verwoerd's plan of "Grand Apartheid", the separate homelands for various black tribes, is felled by loud opposition from portions of the National Party in 1960, and the following year Verwoerd focuses South Africa's considerable resources on the development of the non-white racial groups, with the goal of them giving up political power in return for prosperity. This social contract has almost-immediate results, with a surge in school registrations and other work in the 1960s and early 1970s and a massive drop in unemployment among all races during that time, with the NP's plans focusing on building infrastructure and advance the national will. This also results in the creation of thousands of small and mid-sized companies owned by blacks, Indians and Coloreds. The Homelands idea never fully dies, but it never again gains the support of the majority of South Africa's government, helped along by the opinion among many whites that one day apartheid would be untenable.

By 1970, South Africa's unemployment rate for whites is below 2%, below 7% for Indians and Coloreds and less than 10% for black South Africans. Laws needed to allow this "African business class" to grow are passed during this time. The 1973 oil crisis hits South Africa hard and causes the first real economic slowdown in the nation since before WWII. This also leads to the National Party losing a majority in South Africa's parliament in elections in 1974. South Africa's opposition makes the case that with nearly all of South Africa's neighbors engaged in civil unrest on a huge scale (Rhodesia, Angola, Mozambique) that if civil rights were not improved for all South Africans it would inevitably lead to confrontations between whites and everyone else, and that while the business classes of other races were capable of working in South Africa, they wanted more rights under apartheid. The fall of the Portuguese colonies in 1975 drives the point home further - but when massive guerilla activity breaks out in the border areas between Angola and South Africa, the SADF responds by attacking guerrilla positions inside Angola....which draws a response from Cuba, which deploys units to both the Marxist former Portuguese colonies.

With apartheid being slowly pulled apart, the arms embargo never happens, and the Cubans and South Africans meet for the first time in March 1977 one hundred and eighty miles north of the border inside Angola. It's not a pleasant fight - the SADF, despite a considerable amount of newer equipment, fights to a draw against the Cubans. The 1977-1978 battles in Angola force the SADF to massively increase its strength to match the Cubans. The SAAF's helicopter forces and the SADF's elite forces spend most of the late 1970s assisting the Rhodesians, but Rhodesia eventually does an internal settlement deal in 1980.

The 1980s sees the armed forces of the Communists build up in a big way, forcing the SADF to do so as well. Within the context of the Cold War, South Africa quickly does become NATO's southern front, as African resistance groups and governments battle it out with Cuba on one side and South Africa on the other, while the latter works to sort out its social problems. But the clincher of the need to change comes in 1980, when a raid on a Pan-Africanist Congress camp in Maputo, Mozambique, by the SADF's 44 Para results in a Cuban division being based there, and forcing a South African armored brigade to be based at Nelspruit. On May 27, 1980, the a SADF patrol just off the N4 is fired upon by two Cuban Air Force Mi-24D helicopters, killing three Ratel armored personnel carriers and two Land Rovers and taking the lives of 17 SADF soldiers. Two days later, SADF Mirage F1AZ attack aircraft, Buccaneer S.50 strike aircraft and Canberra B(I)12 bombers flatten the Cuban base at Maputo's International Airport. South Africa's 81st Armored Brigade and a Cuban Armored Brigade soon are encamped on either side of the border post at Komatipoort, a situation that several times in 1980 and 1981 erupts into skirmishes. Both sides eventually withdraw back to Nelspruit and Maputo in mid-1981, but the situation reinforces the need to fight back against Communism and to come to an equitable agreement in South Africa to make sure what had come to pass in other nations does not happen if apartheid falls.

The 1980-81 battles catch the SADF in the middle of a massive modernization plan, which had begun in 1974-75 as a measure to improve the economy of the country after the energy crisis and had created a variety of improvements to South Africa's defensive forces. After the 1980-81 fights, the government in Pretoria gets more help from abroad, but this comes with the condition that they sort out a government that includes all South Africans. To this end, the ANC is legalized in September 1981, and a jubilant set of ANC leaders returns to South Africa in November 1981. 1982 and 1983 in Pretoria are occupied with plans for a new constitution, but in the meantime economic prosperity continues in the nation and the buildup of the SADF's capabilities continues unabated. By now, white South Africans, who make up 24.2% of the population of the country in the country's 1981 census, are willing to work with the other ethnic groups to ensure the nation's security. Mandela and his side of the debate soon work out a new constitution, which goes to a referendum to the nation on September 8, 1983.

The new constitution sets out a single lower house elected by majority rule, with an upper house with an equal number of representatives for each population group and divided by constituencies, thus forcing any member who seeks to run for that upper house to reach across racial and ethnic lines. All political parties are allowed to run except for those advocating racial superiority or violence and the cabinet and government positions are not allowed to be filled entirely by one group. South Africa has one State President and two Vice-Presidents, as well as a speaker of the Lower House - and by law, these are to be filled by members of the four different ethnic groups. An embedded set of rights of the individual and rights of the state make the nation look more like a federal republic, which was a key demand of the National Party government. Presidents are limited to one term in office, but Prime Ministers are allowed two terms.

The referendum is open to all South Africans, and easily passes with wide support across all racial groups, though black support is lower than other groups. Enacted into law on October 1, 1983, the new constitution for South Africa is followed by an election for South Africa's new government, set for March 15, 1984. It is held with the only problems caused by one white terrorist attempt which ends badly and three minor attacks by communist guerillas. The ANC wins handily with 56% of the vote for the lower house, but the National Party surprises both with its vote count coming in at 30% support, winning both the white and colored racial groups. Nelson Mandela is sworn in as South Africa's first black President on March 25, 1984, at the Union Buildings in Pretoria. The whole process is a force which is inspiring to both South Africans and foreign investors, and South Africa's 1980s economic growth rises from a sluggish 2.3% in 1980 to a stunning 9.7% peak in 1988, and per capita income in South Africa rises across all races by over 70% between 1980 and 1990, with black South Africans benefitting the most. Mandela's many promises in the 1984 campaign are energetically set to by South Africans of all races, and such is the level of success that an interview by Verwoerd in 1988 to the Rand Daily Mail has him state that "South Africa is advancing further than I thought it would in my lifetime, and our people, all of them, should be proud of what they have accomplished. If I had known this is what would be the result of a move towards majority rule, I make no statement in saying that I would have spoken to Mandela in the sixties." Mandela retires after one term as President in 1989, giving way to Steven Biko's term as President of South Africa.

Meanwhile, the SADF buys billions in new hardware between 1975 and 1990, with the goal of advancing its goals to be a modern fighting force, and after the 1980-81 skirmishes black soldiers are soon coming into the SADF in numbers, numbers that grow dramatically following the 1983 constitution. With high minerals prices providing a cushion of money for South Africa in the 1980s, the SADF's capabilities grow massively during this time period. The United States scores big sales to South Africa's defense forces in the forms of selling the F/A-18 Hornet fighter to the SAAF in 1982, while the SA Navy buys four mostly-completed air-warfare destroyers from the United States in 1980 - the ships had been intended for Iran but the order had been called off as a result of the Islamic Revolution. Despite the American successes, much of the SADF's equipments are filled by domestic sources and most of the others are won by the Europeans. A huge score happens in reverse of this in 1984, when Armscor's G5 howitzer is selected by the Spanish Army to replace many of the varied artillery guns owned by the Spanish Army. The G5, which is developed in large part due to the work of Canadian engineer Gerald Bull, is sold to quite a number of countries as a counter to the long-ranged Soviet M-46 130mm howitzer. Likewise, Saudi Arabia orders a number of Ratel APCs in 1985, but a potentially-huge order from the Saudis ends up going to the rival American M113. South Africa and Israel's long history of co-operation is added when the two nations co-operate on the development of a "revolutionary tank", which becomes the Merkava III. The Merkava III enters SADF service in 1987.

By 1990, the SADF is the highly-potent fighting arm of what is unquestionably Africa's strongest nation, though economic development in Zimbabwe Rhodesia and Botswana had done wonders for those nations. As the communists retrench themselves in Europe, Cuba is eventually forced to withdraw from Angola and Mozambique in 1990 following the Brazzaville Accords, which also sees the SADF agree to not get involved in the internal affairs of either Angola or Mozambique again. 1990 sees the first African car maker emerge from SA and 1991 sees the country's GDP per capita pass $12,000 per person, with a vibrant and strong private sector in dozens of industries helping both the country's economic performance and its unemployment levels. The 1991 Census sees the population at 31,122,450, with that population being 57.6% black, 23.8% white, 12.1% colored or mixed-race and 5.2% Indian.
 
Now, that is a scenario!

It is something we all will like to poke holes in, of course.

All said, it could have been. The NP leaders were complex people in many ways and absolutely not stupid. Whether Verwoerd had a heart for black people is a good question. John Vorster is a different person again.

If history could skip Vorster and get to PW Botha a bit faster, I think the chances of apartheid going away in the 1970's would have been much higher.

PW Botha did not like anybody, black or white. He did not like English-speaking SA's, black, coloureds, Indians, chinese, japanese, portuguise, Italians, americans. Probably not eskimo's either.

However, he did see that apartheid had to go.

My thought is that PW lets Mandela out of jail. Just telling him to go home. That's it.

But then not allowing him to get a passport. and keeping OR Tambo outside of SA.

That would be building two centres of power:

Will Tambo just hand over to Mandela? Will Mandela just go home? Who will want to be the next president?

Suddenly there is an SA-based ANC and an overseas-based ANC. If PW can "divide and rule", then these two centres will soon be at war with each other. Who will benefit? PW and NP

Ivan
 
^ That's an interesting scenario, but I had Mandela and a bunch of the Rivonia Trial never get arrested but instead end up in Zambia or Europe as Tambo and a bunch of the ANC's senior leadership did. Mandela was quite adamant that he would not walk out of jail with conditions, and that if the apartheid state let him out he would speak up, so the divided scenario you mentioned wasn't gonna happen. If Botha had done that, Mandela would have been right back at it, and Botha would have had to toss him back in jail, thus having lost some and gained nothing from the exercise, let him speak as he wishes or kill him, the latter two option not being anything good from the position of the Afrikaner government in 1980s.

I deliberately left out who was running the NP after Verwoerd because I'm in agreement that Vorster would never have gone that path. Botha, though, may well have, and I'm wondering if Donges or Swart or Naude would have, I don't know enough about that to know for sure.
 
Letting Mandela out, just like that, but keeping him in SA and keeping Tambo away from SA would create tension.

Just letting Mandela out, no conditions or anything, just "here you go" would create a lot of trouble in itself. I mean, Mandela can hardly ask to be let back in, can he?

Let him speak up and out in a changing world in SA would put him on a collision course with the ANC of overseas.

By the simple fact that a lot of the people who went into exile became "strangers" to SA and especially out of touch with the SA-based leaders would guarantee that Tambo woudl have to fight to become leader of new government.

PW could have done it in 1982/3 before the State of Emergency in 1984. In many instances I believe that 1984 was the "watershed", not 1976.

1984 was when the majortity realised that apartheid was dead and the world had changed. I think that many people still believed that it could carry on, even after 1976.

To elaborate a bit on your scenario: What if Mandela is chucked out of jail in 1978 (2 years after the 1976 riots). Left alone and allowed to do whtever he wants to do.

Botha (and more to the point police general vd Merwe together with SADF) is still sanctioning incursions all over Africa and also in London, etc.

Now, suddenly, Botha can be seen as taking sides, supporting Mandela's part of ANC against the "exiles" ANC from London - i.e. Tambo.

How will world-opinion like that?

If Botha is still carrying on with settling with Mozambique (Komatieport agreement), waging war in Angola, supporting Savimbi, meddling in Lesotho and supporting Mandela's ANC by leaving him alone but going for Tambo's ANC I can see a lot of new developments coming on.

Comments on this (I know we are moving away from the topic. Should we put up a new thread on this?)

Ivan
 
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