Make Cornish the world's lingua franca by 2000

With a POD anytime in human history, but not using ASB, alien invasions or geological manipulation, (eg having all the worlds tin and China Clay in Cornwall alone), can anybody sketch out a trajectory which would have the Cornish language enjoying a similar status to English in OTL?

Just for fun really. There was a TL on keeping cornish going as a viable language but that was back in 2005 so nice to look at it again.

A Brythonic Celtic language, yes. But Cornish, identifiable as such, is ASB.

Obviously a different history will change any language to forms incomprehensible to modern speakers, especially with a PoD far back enough to build a Cornish empire. But does that make it impossible for the Brythonic dialect of Cornwall to become a national standard of *Britain, and then for *Britain to build a world empire?

I think you want a PoD in the Sub-Roman period. Before the so-called heptarchy was established, after the Romans left, when there were many brythonic and anglo-saxon kingdoms alike struggling for dominance. It's a period where borders fluctuated and a lot of states had a shot at coming on top. And if Dumnonia does, and you'll count Devon's closely related Brythonic dialect, maybe the capital will remain there and the local speech become the standardized British language.

birdboy2000 said:

Obviously a different history will change any language to forms incomprehensible to modern speakers, especially with a PoD far back enough to build a Cornish empire. But does that make it impossible for the Brythonic dialect of Cornwall to become a national standard of *Britain, and then for *Britain to build a world empire?

I think you want a PoD in the Sub-Roman period. Before the so-called heptarchy was established, after the Romans left, when there were many brythonic and anglo-saxon kingdoms alike struggling for dominance. It's a period where borders fluctuated and a lot of states had a shot at coming on top. And if Dumnonia does, and you'll count Devon's closely related Brythonic dialect, maybe the capital will remain there and the local speech become the standardized British language.

Click to expand...

London (or somewhere near) is likely to become the capital in the long haul; it happened with Anglo-Saxon England, whose cradle as a unified kingdom was Wessex.
Actually, what Cornwall/Dumnonia has to do is basically "pulling a Wessex" on the Angles and Saxon (Arthur, I'm looking at you ).
The trick is to keep Cornish as the standard language thereafter, even if, in all likelyhood, Cornwall and Devon won't be the economic powerhouse of the Brythonic state for long.

Falecius said:

London (or somewhere near) is likely to become the capital in the long haul; it happened with Anglo-Saxon England, whose cradle as a unified kingdom was Wessex.
Actually, what Cornwall/Dumnonia has to do is basically "pulling a Wessex" on the Angles and Saxon (Arthur, I'm looking at you ).
The trick is to keep Cornish as the standard language thereafter, even if, in all likelyhood, Cornwall and Devon won't be the economic powerhouse of the Brythonic state for long.

Click to expand...

Bristol was the second biggest city for a long time wasn't it? That's reasonably close.

Beedok said:

Bristol was the second biggest city for a long time wasn't it? That's reasonably close.

Click to expand...

I thought it was York.
Bristol was rather important anyway. On the other hand, it was essentially the only city of any real importance in Southwestern England (though in earlier times I think that niche was filled by Gloucester).

Thanks guys, I'm glad nobody said it was totally beyond the bounds of possibility. For my money it would have to be a mixture of perhaps a stronger but still transient danish/viking presence so that the Anglo Saxon resurgence was more firmly based in the South West (Wessex retreats into the peninsula) followed by an unsuccessful Norman invasion but then a trajectory that allows that Anglo-Saxon kingdom to take on the role of empire builder 500 years later. This is probably a tall order but would be interesting.

Kernow rag nevra!

Beedok said:

Bristol was the second biggest city for a long time wasn't it? That's reasonably close.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but Bristol is so far beyond the Cornish area that even a central focus there (which is hard) is going to be likely to go Saxon linguistically.

Alex Richards said:

Yeah, but Bristol is so far beyond the Cornish area that even a central focus there (which is hard) is going to be likely to go Saxon linguistically.

Click to expand...

That's why you have the Cornish grow for a bit first. Or make an alt-Bristol that fills the same niche but is more Cornish. Or something. It's possible gosh darned it!

Colin said:

Thanks guys, I'm glad nobody said it was totally beyond the bounds of possibility. For my money it would have to be a mixture of perhaps a stronger but still transient danish/viking presence so that the Anglo Saxon resurgence was more firmly based in the South West (Wessex retreats into the peninsula) followed by an unsuccessful Norman invasion but then a trajectory that allows that Anglo-Saxon kingdom to take on the role of empire builder 500 years later. This is probably a tall order but would be interesting.

Click to expand...

This is too late, I think, for a Celtic language to dominate in OTL England. I agree with others that you want something during the last years of the WRE or shortly thereafter - a Cornish Camelot, if you will.

I think you will have to accept brythonic language generally rather than than Kernow in particular. If the Germans, Frisians and Danes do not succeed in dominating English society then the everyday language of Britain (as the Romans understood it) would be brythonic and take it from there.

Equally the respectable and written tongue was latin so you have a chance that Britain would develop a latin based language. Especially as it would permit common speech and writing with neighbours. It was no accident that the middle class british teenage Patrick spoke and wrote latin before he was taken by Irish slavers and ultimately became St. Patrick.

Could this projected timeline include vigorous brythonic colonies continuing in Galicia and Lesser Britain (Bretagne) as well as Greater Britain? Taking it further, could the associated prythonic Hibernian and Caledonian cultures move closer to Britain and make a common (if dialectical) tongue throughout the British Isles, Bretagne and Galicia?

If a vigorous Brythonic Galicia existed with supporting contact with Britain then could it have taken a lead in the rump of christian Spain following the Muslim conquest of Al Andalus? Then the reconquest of Spain could end up with a Brythonic Spain. Stretching a bit perhaps.

Taking things far too far; the Celtic Church could be able to stand alone outside Roman Catholicism. In fact theologically (and here I am on very shaky ground) it seems closer to Orthodox than Catholic thinking. Could we have seen a wider Britain as a Western Orthodox church?

To be honest I know very little about the language so can't comment, but the your theological comment is interesting as there have been some speculations about orthodox influences on celtic christianity.

Colin said:

With a POD anytime in human history, but not using ASB, alien invasions or geological manipulation, (eg having all the worlds tin and China Clay in Cornwall alone), can anybody sketch out a trajectory which would have the Cornish language enjoying a similar status to English in OTL?

Just for fun really. There was a TL on keeping cornish going as a viable language but that was back in 2005 so nice to look at it again.

Click to expand...

Eh, Cornwall is waaaaaaay to small to have the kind of power it would need for this to work.

The closest you can realistically come is a TL where the native British (whose language gave birth to OTL Cornish, Welsh, and Breton) get their act together and prevent the Saxons from completely taking over Britain. Either in the course of this or afterwards, they unite into one, stable kingdom covering OTL England, Wales, and Lowland Scotland. Later, Britain plants successful settler colonies in the Americas, which eventually become as powerful as the US is OTL.

If the native Brythonic wasn't replaced by English, Cornish wouldn't be a separate language in the first place. Once the language is recognizable as "Cornish" because the majority of the island's inhabitants no longer speaker a Brythonic language, it becoming the language of any sort of independent power is unlikely.

Mar pleg raglev Mebyon Kernow.

Gans gorhemynadow a'n gwella.

Meur ras.

Nadelik Lowen ha Bledhen Nowyth Da.

Duw genowgh hwi.

Yeah, it won't be OTL Cornish. However, I think that a "Brittany" whose standard language is based primarily upon the Brythonic variant spoken in Cornwall is doable with a POD in the fifth or sixth century AD.
A capital in the general neighborhood (*Bristol or *Gloucester could do) might help, though the Thames and Humber estuaries have a lot going for them.

But if you propose the english culture does not take on then why would a brythonic capital need to be in the southwest?

As has been mentioned, cornish (or west dumnonian as it was the western half of Dumnonia) only became a separate language due to being isolated by english invasion. A brythonic state capital would need to be where the power is and that lies in or about the Thames valley. More probable would be a set of states each with their own capitals. Certainly York would be a contender in the north of ex roman britain.

Bristol is a trading city not a political one. When I lived in Cornwall I became tired of companies and government departments who would tell me they had a south west office; in Bristol. That is like having a south east office in Manchester. If anything Bristol is closer to being a south midlands city. Possibly a capital for Dumnonia in Exeter would make sense.