AH challenge-give the UK a capital other than London, starting in 1603

libbrit

Banned
..........not England, but the UK.

Basically, between 1603, when James VI of Scotland becomes king of England, and perhaps 1707 or thereabouts (when the Act of Union occured in OTL), create a set of circumstances and events that would give the UK, or what would be the UK in OTL and presumably still would in TTL, a capital city other than London.

One thought i have is simply for James to stay in Edinburgh, or perhaps a northern English city to be closer to Scotland incase the unexpected happens whilst ruling England (York comes to mind)..........although that might cause MORE discontent than originally happened when England found out it had a Scottish king.....also, the appeal of the profits of London would be a huge draw for any king.

Anyway,aaaaaaannnnnd go!
 

libbrit

Banned
Xhavnak said:
How about Berwick as the historical border city ?
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Isnt it rather small though? Also, its JUST barely in England. York is slightly more central so that a king could get to the South of England, or parts of Scotland, fairly quickly.

Of course, it neednt be a change that happens when James becomes king of England-one bad fire in London, something happening during the civil wars etc, could all change the future of the country.
 

Maniakes

The English Civil War is a possibility: since the Parliamentarians held London and Westminster, the Royalist government operated out of Oxford. In a Royalist victory scenario, Charles might keep his capital in Oxford in order to keep Parliament away from their power base in London.
 

libbrit

Banned
Maniakes said:
The English Civil War is a possibility: since the Parliamentarians held London and Westminster, the Royalist government operated out of Oxford. In a Royalist victory scenario, Charles might keep his capital in Oxford in order to keep Parliament away from their power base in London.
Click to expand...

The English civil war doesnt have to end any differently to OTL-you could have the great plague or the great fire of London end differnently, and London could be abandoned, with London getting rebuilt slowly as the economic capital, whilst the government relocates elsewhere
 

Elfwine

libbrit said:
The English civil war doesnt have to end any differently to OTL-you could have the great plague or the great fire of London end differnently, and London could be abandoned, with London getting rebuilt slowly as the economic capital, whilst the government relocates elsewhere
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What would make the government relocate to somewhere else? I mean, what would make somewhere else look like the right city if London is considered not the right city?
 

libbrit

Banned
Elfwine said:
What would make the government relocate to somewhere else? I mean, what would make somewhere else look like the right city if London is considered not the right city?
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Well, in the era when the monarch actually had power, where ever the monarch was based, was effectively the capital, so if the Monarchy got too scared of the diseases from London, the most diseased city in the whole of Britain, all he would need to do would be to relocate and the capital would effectively change-the royal court would follow and the entire national beuraucracy along with it.

If the monarch had political reasons to leave-say there was a massive chance of insurrection in the North of England for example, or Scotland, a position more practically useful, such as a central, equidistiant location such as York-the one time capital of the north as it was anyway, might be of more use. With enough time spent there, it could gradually become permanent capital.

In order to scare parliment out of London as well? Well, lets not forget its happened before-in the civil wars, and during the `great stink` in the 1800s when London had no sewage system, parliament often hightailed it out of London, normally to Oxford. Also a recurrence of the Plague or some other disease would help-but if the monarchy was based elsewhere, it wouldnt be too hard to see them just going to join the King or Queen as a practical move.

And of course if there was a `great fire of London xx10` event, perhaps without a genius like Wren emerging, it might simply make it more convenient to abandon London to a less planned, more `gradual` and probably slower period of rebuilding (regardless, London would likely ALWAYS be the trading capital of Britain)
 

jkay

Well, in justice, the capital OUGHTTA be New Delhi :p, but it's probably Space Bat to expect justice during Imperialism..... :cool:
 
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jkarr

you could remove the administrative aspect from London, but you wont be able to remove the financial aspect... London was key to England trade at the time and its unlikely to change for a very long time due to it being established for centuries as Englands economic heart....no king would ignore that
 

Falastur

libbrit said:
Well, in the era when the monarch actually had power, where ever the monarch was based, was effectively the capital, so if the Monarchy got too scared of the diseases from London, the most diseased city in the whole of Britain, all he would need to do would be to relocate and the capital would effectively change-the royal court would follow and the entire national beuraucracy along with it.

If the monarch had political reasons to leave-say there was a massive chance of insurrection in the North of England for example, or Scotland, a position more practically useful, such as a central, equidistiant location such as York-the one time capital of the north as it was anyway, might be of more use. With enough time spent there, it could gradually become permanent capital.

In order to scare parliment out of London as well? Well, lets not forget its happened before-in the civil wars, and during the `great stink` in the 1800s when London had no sewage system, parliament often hightailed it out of London, normally to Oxford. Also a recurrence of the Plague or some other disease would help-but if the monarchy was based elsewhere, it wouldnt be too hard to see them just going to join the King or Queen as a practical move.

And of course if there was a `great fire of London xx10` event, perhaps without a genius like Wren emerging, it might simply make it more convenient to abandon London to a less planned, more `gradual` and probably slower period of rebuilding (regardless, London would likely ALWAYS be the trading capital of Britain)
Click to expand...

Eh, not quite. For other countries, yes, but England abandoned that idea long before most countries as Parliament 99% of the time was based in London, and they were fairly early on considered to be an instrumental function of government, and therefore administration set up around them. London had been unequivocally the capital of England since the 1100 or 1200s.

Yes, there have been various times when the royal family and even Parliament have abandoned London, but only for short periods - in other words, "until the first possible moment it's feasible to return, at which point we shall leave wherever we're camping out without so much as a goodbye or thank you". Even a massively destructive Great Fire (more so than the OTL fire) wouldn't keep them away. And to be honest, Wren was not that important in the recovery of London - within a year London was constructing a monumental 10,000 houses a month after the Great Fire to replace the 150,000 or something lost houses; it built them so fast that it actually outproduced the number of houses that there had previously been within three years, and the population flooded back into the new houses as soon as they were made. Wren had no involvement in that, it was just the common workers who spurred London on to recovery. Even if London had been totally flattened, the people would have done everything in their power to rebuild it. London was just too important not to rebuild, it was more important than every other English city put together, in every way.

Honestly I'm struggling hard to find a non-ASB way of making England/GB permanently change the capital from London after 1605. You just don't abandon a major city like that. There's just no point. It's a bit like someone giving you a really expensive watch to wear to a high-powered job interview but instead you wear the cheap Mickey Mouse watch you found lying in a drawer. Why would you do it?
 

jkay

I was forgetting - my plausible Sealion TL, Hitler's Republic. conquers Britain and has Berlin as a capital.

So that's one way - conquered Britain.
 

EdT

Best bet is the Great Fire, as has been mentioned. IOTL in the wake of the fire, the City of York wrote to Charles II inviting him to move up north and set up shop there instead, but he turned them down.

So... PoD mid 1650s; Charles II, in exile in Breda, catches something nasty and dies. The King's negotiating partners in Britain are hardly thrilled to have James to deal with, and the feeling is mutual; the new King is far less open to compromise than his late brother. Things drag on longer than OTL, but Republicanism is firmly on the wane in London, and eventually the *Convention Parliament is reassured by a rather more grudging Declaration of Breda.

The Restoration happens about a year behind schedule, but James only has a brief honeymoon period before he starts alienating people again, and by the late 1660s his relationship with parliament has soured considerably. Then the rumours about James' secret conversion to catholicism start spreading...

By early 1670, London is a hotbed of anti-royal sentiment once again. Then, a dropped lamp somewhere near Ludgate causes TTL's *Great Fire, which spares the majority City but does a lot of damage to Westminster. Seeing an opportunity to destroy the powerbase of his foes King James prorogues Parliament indefinitely and moves his court up to York. He then somehow manages to win out in the inevitable civil war, but London retains a hatred for the King and monarchs try to avoid the place whenever possible, rather as the Stuarts did Hull IOTL.

York remains the capital of England until the Glorious Revolution of 1745 sweeps away the Royal tyranny, at which point Lord Protector Wade restores London to its rightful place in the nation.
 

titulus regius

During Prime Minister Brunel 's second term, work was begun on the City of Britannia, the new capital, some 50 miles from Birmingham. Parliament moved there in 1857 and New Buckingham Palace was opened in 1861. Following the establishment of a republic, the palace was in 1881 renamed Brunel House by President Burton.

(Beware strayng into the steampunk .....)
 
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