Constantine unites the empire under Mithraism

Dorozhand · Dec 6, 2012

What if Constantine interpreted the meteor as a sign from Mithras rather than Yaweh, and, after uniting the Roman Empire, made Mithraism the state religion?

Was there a significant enough theology behind Mithraism to make it a meaningful state religion and, if not, could something perhaps be built around it at an equivalent of the Nicaea council?

Would many of the empire's Christians convert if it were attractive enough for them to do so?

Would Constantine go for a monotheistic Mithras cult, or would he employ a lot of syncretism, perhaps putting him at the head of the Pantheon?

Mumby · Dec 6, 2012

I always felt that the way the Roman Empire integrated the gods of those they conquered into their pantheon was interestingly secular and progressive. If the line in the Bible that Yahweh is a jealous god is taken literally, you can take it that there are many gods competing for interest. In this situation, it is possible that Mithras and Jesus are but two of many manifestations of gods as men. If the Judaic faith is successfully integrated into the Latin Pantheon, alongside Mithras, then we have some very interesting consequences indeed.

twovultures · Dec 6, 2012

The trouble with Mithraism is that, as a mystery religion, it was highly elitist. A state religion where the average person cannot participate in the religious rituals does not really work. In order to make Mithraism a state religion capable of uniting an empire, practice and worship in the religion must be opened to the public.

Similarly, the sexism of Mithraism is also a problem. Obviously there are successful and widespread religions that hold women in an inferior status, but completely excluding half of your population from religious rituals will not make for a healthy society.

If you alter these aspects of Mithraism, then it could become a state religion. You could have open, public worship and rituals that both sexes can participate in, but keep aspects of the mystery cult by having a priesthood which is male only and which meets to practice priesthood-initiated only rituals. Giving Mithras a wife or a mother to give women a space in religious practice (like the Virgin Mary in Christianity) would also help.

Malta · Dec 6, 2012

twovultures said:
The trouble with Mithraism is that, as a mystery religion, it was highly elitist. A state religion where the average person cannot participate in the religious rituals does not really work. In order to make Mithraism a state religion capable of uniting an empire, practice and worship in the religion must be opened to the public.

Similarly, the sexism of Mithraism is also a problem. Obviously there are successful and widespread religions that hold women in an inferior status, but completely excluding half of your population from religious rituals will not make for a healthy society.

If you alter these aspects of Mithraism, then it could become a state religion. You could have open, public worship and rituals that both sexes can participate in, but keep aspects of the mystery cult by having a priesthood which is male only and which meets to practice priesthood-initiated only rituals. Giving Mithras a wife or a mother to give women a space in religious practice (like the Virgin Mary in Christianity) would also help.

There is also the issue that Constantine did not practice Mithraism . He worshipped Sol Invictus. Sol Invictus by this point in history had become a very popular god, and something special to the Roman Emperors as we see iconography of Sol Invictus prevalent in coins and architecture. Constantine had imagery of the god on his own coins and built monuments in Constantinople.

The Emperor Aurelian who was quite successful a few decades prior had even made the Cult of Sol Invictus the highest of the Roman Pontifexes. If you want a POD involving a Sun God then one must start with him as he did go forth and start a trend which looked like it was leaning toward making Sol Invictus the Supreame God.

And it is important to note that Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sun, is connected to the Roman god, not the Syrian one.

Rex Mundi · Dec 6, 2012

twovultures said:
The trouble with Mithraism is that, as a mystery religion, it was highly elitist. A state religion where the average person cannot participate in the religious rituals does not really work. In order to make Mithraism a state religion capable of uniting an empire, practice and worship in the religion must be opened to the public.

Similarly, the sexism of Mithraism is also a problem. Obviously there are successful and widespread religions that hold women in an inferior status, but completely excluding half of your population from religious rituals will not make for a healthy society.

If you alter these aspects of Mithraism, then it could become a state religion. You could have open, public worship and rituals that both sexes can participate in, but keep aspects of the mystery cult by having a priesthood which is male only and which meets to practice priesthood-initiated only rituals. Giving Mithras a wife or a mother to give women a space in religious practice (like the Virgin Mary in Christianity) would also help.

The sexism isn't a particularly big issue, in my opinion; at least, not nearly as big as the fact that Mithra worshippers (or the followers of any pagan belief system, really) aren't as keen to proselytize as Christians are. So long as that obstacle exists, specific articles of faith don't really really matter.

eliphas8 · Dec 6, 2012

Rex Mundi said:
The sexism isn't a particularly big issue, in my opinion; at least, not nearly as big as the fact that Mithra worshippers (or the followers of any pagan belief system, really) aren't as keen to proselytize as Christians are. So long as that obstacle exists, specific articles of faith don't really really matter.

The sexism is a big deal because mothers where and are a key aspect of religious upbringing and if all of them are refused access to religious ritual that will damage that religion for all future generations, hell Christianity became a major religion partially because it was very popular among women who then taught it their kids spreading it along to the next generation very effectively.

But yeah I doubt Mithraism could ever be state religion, it just never held a candle in comparison to Sol Invictus, Neo-Platoism (by far the best choices for alternatives to christianity being adopted), Manicheism, and any of the other movements from this era more popular with the common man, Mithraism was only ever popular among the military and even then they where a minority.

NKVD · Dec 6, 2012

IIRC, isn't there some evidence that the whole "sign of the cross appearing to Constantine" thing was just an excuse he used, and that establishment of Christianity as the state religion was more of a political move?

Malta · Dec 6, 2012

eliphas8 said:
The sexism is a big deal because mothers where and are a key aspect of religious upbringing and if all of them are refused access to religious ritual that will damage that religion for all future generations, hell Christianity became a major religion partially because it was very popular among women who then taught it their kids spreading it along to the next generation very effectively.

If that were the sole cAse I am not too sure about that. Isis Worship not only had the whole Family, Mother motif, but it also allowed Women to participate in the rituals and become priests.
http://www.camws.org/meeting/2009/program/abstracts/12A3.Cirzan.pdf

Shogun · Dec 6, 2012

King of Malta said:
If that were the sole cAse I am not too sure about that. Isis Worship not only had the whole Family, Mother motif, but it also allowed Women to participate in the rituals and become priests.
http://www.camws.org/meeting/2009/program/abstracts/12A3.Cirzan.pdf

How come it never caught on?

Malta · Dec 6, 2012

Shogun said:
How come it never caught on?

It caught on big time. The Golden Ass is about a man turned to a Donkey eventually becomes human again through the intervention of Isis and he is inducted into the Mysteries. It was the only surviving literature from the Greco-Roman period that gives an in depth look into the plight of the lower classes.

It got taken out by the Christians. Edit:Though some sources say that Catholic Priests were complaining about Isis Worship until the 8th Century in some places. Ironically, Emperor Julian fought against a Almanni Cheif who had converted to Isis Worship when he was in Gaul.

Shogun · Dec 6, 2012

King of Malta said:
It caught on big time. The Golden Ass is about a man turned to a Donkey eventually becomes human again through the intervention of Isis and he is inducted into the Mysteries. It was the only surviving literature from the Greco-Roman period that gives an in depth look into the plight of the lower classes.

It got taken out by the Christians. Edit:Though some sources say that Catholic Priests were complaining about Isis Worship until the 8th Century in some places. Ironically, Emperor Julian fought against a Almanni Cheif who had converted to Isis Worship when he was in Gaul.

I suppose I meant why didn't Isis Worship have more appeal than Christianity? Why didn't it grow to the point that the emperors felt the need to adopt it as the ruling faith of the empire like Constantine did with Christianity?

eliphas8 · Dec 6, 2012

Shogun said:
I suppose I meant why didn't Isis Worship have more appeal than Christianity? Why didn't it grow to the point that the emperors felt the need to adopt it as the ruling faith of the empire like Constantine did with Christianity?

Bad luck most likely, why didn't Sol Invictus the cult which always held imperial favor and was popular with the populous for the most part catch on enough?

Malta · Dec 7, 2012

Shogun said:
I suppose I meant why didn't Isis Worship have more appeal than Christianity? Why didn't it grow to the point that the emperors felt the need to adopt it as the ruling faith of the empire like Constantine did with Christianity?

Mostly political alienation by conservative Roman values of the noble class (which carries over quite well to Christanity). It wasn't until Caligula that the cult was allowed in Rome, before it was considered a pornographic cult of women and slaves. Cult images of the goddess were ordered thrown into the river Tiber and members were Crucified. Ironic right?

Eventually the worship of Isis did spread into the Upper Class, but it never got that grand political acumen of Sol Invictus.

I am Isis, the mistress of every land, and I was taught by Hermes and with Hermes I devised letters, both the sacred (hieroglyphs) and the demotic, that all things might not be written with the same (letters).
I gave and ordained laws for men, which no one is able to change. I am eldest daughter of Kronos.
I am wife and sister of King Osiris.
I am she who findeth fruit for men.
I am mother of King Horus.
I am she that riseth in the Dog Star.
I am she that is called goddess by women.
For me was the city of Bubastis built.
I divided the earth from the heaven.
I showed the paths of the stars.
I ordered the course of the sun and the moon.
I devised business in the sea.
I made strong the right.
I brought together woman and man.
I appointed to women to bring their infants to birth in the tenth month.
I ordained that parents should be loved by children.
I laid punishment on those disposed without natural affection toward their parents. I made with my brother Osiris an end to the eating of men.
I revealed mysteries unto men.
I taught (men) to honor images of the gods. I consecrated the precincts of the gods.
I broke down the governments of tyrants.
I made an end to murders.
I compelled women to be loved by men.
I made the right to be stronger than gold and silver.
I ordained that the true should be thought good.
I devised marriage contracts.
I assigned to Greeks and barbarians their languages.
I made the beautiful and the shameful to be distinguished by nature.
I ordained that nothing should be more feared than an oath.
I have delivered the plotter of evil against other men into the hands of the one he plotted against. I established penalties for those who practice injustice.
I decreed mercy to suppliants.
I protect (or: honor) righteous guards.
With me the right prevails.
I am the Queen of rivers and winds and sea.
No one is held in honor without my knowing it.
I am the Queen of war.
I am the Queen of the thunderbolt.
I stir up the sea and I calm it.
I am in the rays of the sun.
I inspect the courses of the sun.
Whatever I please, this too shall come to an end.
With me everything is reasonable.
I set free those in bonds.
I am the Queen of seamanship.
I make the navigable unnavigable when it pleases me.
I created walls of cities.
I am called the Lawgiver (Thesmophoros).
I brought up islands out of the depths into the light.
I am Lord of rainstorms.
I overcome Fate.
Fate hearkens to me.
Hail, O Egypt, that nourished me!
-Kyme Arteology

SlyDessertFox · Dec 8, 2012

So what if Constantine saw it as a sign from Sol Invictus, the God he supposedly worshipped prior to this?

VictorLaszlo · Dec 8, 2012

Shogun said:
I suppose I meant why didn't Isis Worship have more appeal than Christianity? Why didn't it grow to the point that the emperors felt the need to adopt it as the ruling faith of the empire like Constantine did with Christianity?

Because it was a religious cult practised overwhelmingly by women only, thus mothers usually did not hand it down to their sons, just their daughters, meaning it had little support among the ruling male elites in Rome. But while the Isis cult itself did not survive, its' iconography did, it was syncretisized into christianity, where Isis lactans became the Virgin with child.

Mackon · Dec 8, 2012

Could the two, Sol Invictus and the cult of Isis be cobbled together into something workable?

In many respects that's how Christianity worked, stitching together bits and bobs.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Dec 9, 2012

slydessertfox said:
So what if Constantine saw it as a sign from Sol Invictus, the God he supposedly worshipped prior to this?

Ummm... my understanding is the 'sign' was a cross on a disk. I have heard it suggested that this allowed him to spin it both ways and gain supporters from both sides. Note that he didnt convert until his death bed.

DanMcCollum · Dec 9, 2012

XNM said:
IIRC, isn't there some evidence that the whole "sign of the cross appearing to Constantine" thing was just an excuse he used, and that establishment of Christianity as the state religion was more of a political move?

Well, its interesting to note that the sign which Constantine claimed to have seen, the Chi Rho, (the P overlaying the X) really hadn't been previously associated with Christianity (or, for that matter, anything, if I remember correctly; although it does contain the first two letters of Christ). It was, effectively, a new construction. It seems likely to me that Constantine, if he was simply pulling off a political move, would have chosen an established symbol to base his story around, and not something so convoluted.

Now; according to the story, Constantine either saw the symbol in a dream, or he saw it while staring at the sun. Whether his eyes were playing tricks on him, or the image bubbled up from his sunbconcious, i think that Constantine actually believed that he had had some sort of experience, and that it wasn't a purely naked political ploy. (of course, after HAVING his experience, and winning the battle, he played total politics WITH it ... but, hey, he was a Roman Emperor, and it was expected!)

DanMcCollum · Dec 9, 2012

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Ummm... my understanding is the 'sign' was a cross on a disk. I have heard it suggested that this allowed him to spin it both ways and gain supporters from both sides. Note that he didnt convert until his death bed.

This later aspect of Constantine's religion is often misunderstood in the modern era. At the time, it was very common to put off baptism until one was nearly on their death bed. Baptism was supposed to wash away one's sins, and could only be done once, and so it was simply practical to put it off, as long as possible.

othyrsyde · Dec 10, 2012

King of Malta said:
Mostly political alienation by conservative Roman values of the noble class (which carries over quite well to Christanity). It wasn't until Caligula that the cult was allowed in Rome, before it was considered a pornographic cult of women and slaves. Cult images of the goddess were ordered thrown into the river Tiber and members were Crucified. Ironic right?

Eventually the worship of Isis did spread into the Upper Class, but it never got that grand political acumen of Sol Invictus.

Posted a thread way back about Isis superseding Christianity and how that would affect Rome and it's possible collapse in such a TL.