The NEW Our TimeLine Maps Thread!

[Chris S]

Now how about the two of you focus on doing 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, etc? I'm already attempting 1943. Then with WWII finished, a series on WWI could be done. I mean unless we are adding internal divisions or correcting actual mistakes (such as Cyclades being administered from the Italian Dodecanese/Aegean Islands instead of merely being occupied, etc) then a lot of time and effort is being spent on this one map when so many more reference maps could be done.

[Feo]

for the Italian provinces this is the map with the 1942 provinces, I removed the provinces thet were born after the war and I've added the Province of Spalato(Split, http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Spalato)



for the provinces/regions question I can say that both in high school and at university I've studied that regions existed only for statistical purpose in some durring the kingdom era, the Provinces were the only administrative subdivision, like the french departements they were based on.
the problem is that I can't fin map of the kingdom of italy with provinces or regions.

[LSCatilina]

1. I have undrawn the continous line on the east front : after all, the occupation zones in Grecce or Slovakia aren't comparable with a war front, isn't?

2. I have put a nearly border for french departements in Algeria, but, as it's Sahara, most of maps doesn't put a south border. So...it's an approximation

3. I have put Tanger as occupied by Spain

4. Well, we have two occupations zones which don't correspond

Italian Zone in France : using the map whom Chris give me, i'have make this, the differences are : a N-E part of Bouches-Du-Rhône is occupied and the border near Isère follow departements line.

Greece : Athenes is or isn't occupied by the both sides?

For WWI...Why not make a map of the claims of war of each side? It's not strictly historical, but most studies are made on this subject and it will be interessing for anybody who want to make a *WWI

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

1. I have undrawn the continous line on the east front : after all, the occupation zones in Grecce or Slovakia aren't comparable with a war front, isn't?

Yes it is. Besides, the contrast is now bad for some people's eyes (hint: myself included - it now slightly dazzles the eyes around that area). The edge of an occupation zone is simply the limit of a foreign army's area of control. Likewise a warfront is also the limit of a foreign army's area of control. Beyond those boundaries, the military authority doesn't exist and those boundaries are definite, the only difference being that some last longer than others but even so it isn't like occupation zone boundaries normally last longer than war fronts - Some of the Allied zones in Germany after WWI lasted for only 4 years. WWI itself lasted for 4 years and during much of that time the Western Front didn't change by great stretches. In the war in France prior to that the Prussian occupation of France after 1871 lasted for less time than did some war fronts in WWI. Then today we have Israel controlling the Golan Heights and West Bank for about 40 years and since Israel hasn't officially made peace with Syria, the Golans would still be a war front in a sense. Sticking with the middle east, how then would you show the defunct Israeli security zone in Lebanon (akin in name but not completely in manner to the German protection zone in Slovakia) when Israel is still technically at war with Lebanon and has been since the 1940s?

I suppose one could always maintain two versions of the map though.

2. I have put a nearly border for french departements in Algeria, but, as it's Sahara, most of maps doesn't put a south border. So...it's an approximation

I'm sure I've seen a sountern boundary for the coastal section of Algeria somewhere. This is a good start by the way.

3. I have put Tanger as occupied by Spain

???? Didn't my map on this page and Feo's map already show this with the Spanish occupation colour?

4. Well, we have two occupations zones which don't correspond

Italian Zone in France : using the map whom Chris give me, i'have make this, the differences are : a N-E part of Bouches-Du-Rhône is occupied and the border near Isère follow departements line.

From nearly everything I've seen and read online, the Italian zone in France was supposed to follow the border of the Rhone but deviated around Marseilles to let the Germans occupy that. The Rhone is used as a border for most of the departments in the area. Hence the occupation zone border would follow most of the department borders in the area. In any event I based my map off Atlas Historique which seems to be an online French-language historical atlas. Since that atlas shows the Italian zone follow the border for the most part, I based most of it off that atlas. Another map (check further back in this thread and in the 'OTL Standard Maps of Europe' thread) show it follow the borders more precisely and actually going north of the Rhone in the Ain department.

I also found these two maps which seem to show it following the department borders a lot more closely (but deviating away from Avignon town):

http://www.historycooperative.org/jo...son_fig01b.gif

http://www.historycooperative.org/jo...son_fig03b.gif

They both seem to come from some fella's case study about the area:

http://www.historycooperative.org/cg...4/pearson.html

Greece : Athenes is or isn't occupied by the both sides?

Only German occupied.

For WWI...Why not make a map of the claims of war of each side? It's not strictly historical, but most studies are made on this subject and it will be interessing for anybody who want to make a *WWI

That would be very useful. I've only seen exaggerated claims though and Germam variable claims (with some groups calling for the annexations of much more of France than the government initially seemed to intend, etc). Would you happen to have the claims of the British, French, Italians, Austro-Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians and Ottomans?

Originally Posted by Feo

for the Italian provinces this is the map with the 1942 provinces, I removed the provinces thet were born after the war and I've added the Province of Spalato(Split, http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Spalato)



for the provinces/regions question I can say that both in high school and at university I've studied that regions existed only for statistical purpose in some durring the kingdom era, the Provinces were the only administrative subdivision, like the french departements they were based on.
the problem is that I can't fin map of the kingdom of italy with provinces or regions.

Kudos for correcting the provinces. I guess Mussolini and his gang formalized the regions for statistics only then.

[Glen]

Here's an interesting map from 1688. I think it provides interesting insights into what people of the time believed the New World was like, what was of interest, and a lot of names for potential alternate history locations.

[Hawkeye]

This is one of my favorite base maps to use and I put more borders on it for everyone else.

[Morgan Hauser]

Originally Posted by Chris S

Now how about the two of you focus on doing 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, etc? I'm already attempting 1943. Then with WWII finished, a series on WWI could be done. I mean unless we are adding internal divisions or correcting actual mistakes (such as Cyclades being administered from the Italian Dodecanese/Aegean Islands instead of merely being occupied, etc) then a lot of time and effort is being spent on this one map when so many more reference maps could be done.

I'm currently busy working on a complete 1937 map. Should be able to extrapolate the maps up till 1942 from there after I'm done.

[LSCatilina]

Chris S
->
1. I know that war front is a moving "border". I thought the one which is drawn is more conventional than really realistic.
Of course the military zone which is farest from front is more controlled as "pays conquis" by occupying one.
It's why add a strong tie with a continuous line is disturbing, because it's not stable and i think everyone can undrstand the occupied zone just next the borders is more controlled and rattached de facto to the country.

2. All the southern border i've seen are approximative until 1955 with the addiction of new departements.

3. Err...Oops?

4.
For my part, i've use Altas-Historique.net...So...Let's go with yours maps, if they correspond

5. For German claims on France, i'have made this few months ago
http://lscatilina.deviantart.com/art...many-135842422

Without the demilitarized zone and the half-annexion of Belgium, it's going very next of German claims of war in this zone as established by most studies (annexion of this part of Northen France, vassalization of Belgium, annexion of part of Wallonia, more less than in this map)

However, for french-speaking i council the "Les Négociations Secrètes pendant la Première Guerre Mondiale" by Guy Pedronici, Folio collection

"Responsabilités et Buts de Guerre" by Daniélou Charles

"Les origines de l'intervention italienne" by Michel P-H

"Les tentatives de paix séparée entre l'Allemagne et la Russie Tsariste" by Pierre André

"Les buts de guerre du gouvernement francais" by Renouvin Pierre (in Revue Historique n°477)

Erdmann Karl Dietrich "Les buts de guerre de Bethmann-Hollweg"

And this map (which are obviously very very approximatives

Pan-Germanic Claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._map5_1911.jpg

German Africa http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1917.jpg

German Africa 2 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1917.jpg

German Claims 1917 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...uture_1917.jpg

German Claims 1915 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...mands_1915.jpg

French Claims 1916 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...urope_1918.jpg

Italia irredente http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map18_1918.jpg

Yougo-slavian claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1918.jpg

Chzecs and Slovaks claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._mp22_1918.jpg

Rumania claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map23_1918.jpg

Poland claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map24_1918.jpg

Wilsonian Europe http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map27_1917.jpg

Evil-Plans-of-Francis-Ferdinand-and-Kaiser http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._map8_1914.jpg

Maps to use with a lot of prudence, it's english maps during or just after WWI
Much like this french map "If Germany was Won" http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.c...y-wins-001.jpg

Just doesn't let this maps to cloose of your novice in AH

[Morgan Hauser]

Here's the progress on the 1937 map so far.
The only parts still missing are the internal borders of the Kingdoms of Greece, Albania, Iceland, and the Baltic states.

Feel free to improve on it or correct any errors you might see. I think the Polish Voivodeships especially need to be readjusted. For some reason the Poles always seem to prefer their country's provinces to be really arbitrary.

Polish Silesia and Catalonia are depicted as autonomous components of their countries, and the Spanish Civil War is in full swing at this point.
Note that Basque Country's autonomous status that it had in the Spanish Republic has been revoked by the Nationalists following its capture.

I don't yet know how many maps will follow this one. Right now I'm thinking
- October 1937, this map.
- March 1939, after the Anschluss and the full dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.
- January 1940, long after the invasion of Poland.
- July 1940, after the conclusion of the Battle of France.
- June 1941, just prior to Operation Barbarossa.
- December 1941, as the Germans make their closest advance on Moscow.
Up to November 1942 (immediately after Operation Case Anton, the one we've been working on so far).

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Chris S
->
1. I know that war front is a moving "border". I thought the one which is drawn is more conventional than really realistic.
Of course the military zone which is farest from front is more controlled as "pays conquis" by occupying one.
It's why add a strong tie with a continuous line is disturbing, because it's not stable and i think everyone can undrstand the occupied zone just next the borders is more controlled and rattached de facto to the country.

Well, I guess as I said, we can use both. That way, those who prefer the contrast of thin black borders can use them, but those who prefer only official borders can use the borderless war-fronts.

2. All the southern border i've seen are approximative until 1955 with the addiction of new departements.

I think the southern border you have is the best we can get. I've seen the same approximation in maps on English and French wikipedia and we know there must have been some southern limit because everything south of those departments was consolidated into a the "southern territories".

4.
For my part, i've use Altas-Historique.net...So...Let's go with yours maps, if they correspond

I'm thinking maybe we should go for the best compromise. Try to find out if certain towns (e.g. Avignon) were ever occupied by Italian troops and from there see if Atlas-Historique or those other maps are correct.

5. For German claims on France, i'have made this few months ago
http://lscatilina.deviantart.com/art...many-135842422

Without the demilitarized zone and the half-annexion of Belgium, it's going very next of German claims of war in this zone as established by most studies (annexion of this part of Northen France, vassalization of Belgium, annexion of part of Wallonia, more less than in this map)

Yeah, I've seen maps to that effect.

However, for french-speaking i council the "Les Négociations Secrètes pendant la Première Guerre Mondiale" by Guy Pedronici, Folio collection

"Responsabilités et Buts de Guerre" by Daniélou Charles

"Les origines de l'intervention italienne" by Michel P-H

"Les tentatives de paix séparée entre l'Allemagne et la Russie Tsariste" by Pierre André

"Les buts de guerre du gouvernement francais" by Renouvin Pierre (in Revue Historique n°477)

Erdmann Karl Dietrich "Les buts de guerre de Bethmann-Hollweg"

Well, I don't think I have access to those books, but if they are online then it shouldn't be a problem. Don't need to speak French to read the maps, thankfully.

And this map (which are obviously very very approximatives

Pan-Germanic Claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._map5_1911.jpg

German Africa http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1917.jpg

German Africa 2 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1917.jpg

German Claims 1917 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...uture_1917.jpg

German Claims 1915 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...mands_1915.jpg

French Claims 1916 http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...urope_1918.jpg

Italia irredente http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map18_1918.jpg

Yougo-slavian claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...laims_1918.jpg

Chzecs and Slovaks claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._mp22_1918.jpg

Rumania claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map23_1918.jpg

Poland claims http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map24_1918.jpg

Wilsonian Europe http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...map27_1917.jpg

Evil-Plans-of-Francis-Ferdinand-and-Kaiser http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._map8_1914.jpg

Maps to use with a lot of prudence, it's english maps during or just after WWI
Much like this french map "If Germany was Won" http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.c...y-wins-001.jpg

Just doesn't let this maps to cloose of your novice in AH

Yeah, I've seen those maps, which is why I was cautious about doing a claims map for WWI, since many of those maps are vague, inaccurate or outright exaggerations. But if we can base a claims map (or claims maps since the claims probably did change throughout the war) on well known/researched info then we should get a very, very useful resource.

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by Morgan Hauser

Here's the progress on the 1937 map so far.
The only parts still missing are the internal borders of the Kingdoms of Greece, Albania, Iceland, and the Baltic states.

Looks good. Might I suggest though that you colour the Yugoslav internal divisions as being white, like Italy and Turkey. It's hard to see the black on dark blue.

Feel free to improve on it or correct any errors you might see. I think the Polish Voivodeships especially need to be readjusted. For some reason the Poles always seem to prefer their country's provinces to be really arbitrary.

well you can still discern ex-German, ex-Austrian and ex-Russian territories from those voivodeships. Isn't that how it was?

A couple of errors I've spotted though:

1. You have no Suez Canal Zone. It was under British control at the time.

2. You've missed out the French departments in Algeria as provided by LSCatilina.

Polish Silesia and Catalonia are depicted as autonomous components of their countries, and the Spanish Civil War is in full swing at this point.
Note that Basque Country's autonomous status that it had in the Spanish Republic has been revoked by the Nationalists following its capture.

Didn't know Polish Silesia had autonomy.

I don't yet know how many maps will follow this one. Right now I'm thinking
- October 1937, this map.
- March 1939, after the Anschluss and the full dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.
- January 1940, long after the invasion of Poland.
- July 1940, after the conclusion of the Battle of France.
- June 1941, just prior to Operation Barbarossa.
- December 1941, as the Germans make their closest advance on Moscow.
Up to November 1942 (immediately after Operation Case Anton, the one we've been working on so far).

Sounds like a decent series of maps.

[Ofaloaf]

Oh my stars and garters, I wasn't aware that a map like this even existed! Here, this might be useful to someone wanting to write a detailed description of German logistics during the Franco-Prussian War:

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Chris S

Well, I don't think I have access to those books, but if they are online then it shouldn't be a problem. Don't need to speak French to read the maps, thankfully.

Hem...This books havn't no maps at all. It's just descrpitions of claims, by precising geographic zones
Althought, i'm pretty sure that at least one or two of thix books exists in english

Originally Posted by Chris S

Yeah, I've seen those maps, which is why I was cautious about doing a claims map for WWI, since many of those maps are vague, inaccurate or outright exaggerations.

Yep, it's obviously that, BUT, if you are cautious and prudent about this maps, you can find tendencies of claims of war.
Cause you'll never find a precise map of this, just better or not approximations

I''ll work on after the 2nd i think

[Morgan Hauser]

Originally Posted by Chris S

well you can still discern ex-German, ex-Austrian and ex-Russian territories from those voivodeships. Isn't that how it was?

Now that you mention it, they do. Didn’t notice that detail until now. I already knew that the southern border of East Prussia can be seen in one of the Voivodeships of present-day Poland, but the others still seem pretty random.

Originally Posted by Chris S

Looks good. Might I suggest though that you colour the Yugoslav internal divisions as being white, like Italy and Turkey. It's hard to see the black on dark blue.

A couple of errors I've spotted though:

1. You have no Suez Canal Zone. It was under British control at the time.

2. You've missed out the French departments in Algeria as provided by LSCatilina.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by Chris S

Didn't know Polish Silesia had autonomy.

They did actually. Despite the intense Polonization policies carried out in the Second Republic against other ethnic groups the region had its own parliament and president (although the latter, who was head of the administration, was appointed by Warsaw as its representative), maintaining a fairly large degree of independence from the central government.

[Morgan Hauser]

Here’s a number of multiple updates at once. This is the finished version of the Europe map in October of 1937, prior to the pre-war territorial enlargements of Germany and in the midst of the Spanish Civil War

Notable edits:
- spotted an error with the Portuguese provinces that I corrected.
- added the corrections that Chris advised.
- largely reworked the Gaue borders within Nazi Germany. They were distorted in many places and didn’t fit both post- and pre-war maps. Also done with Austria and other annexed territories, and I’ll later carry this change over into the 1942 map.
- transferred the so-called “Hultschiner ländchen” from German Upper Silesia back to Czechoslovakia.

The internal borders for Iceland, the Baltic States, Albania and Greece have been left out, as I haven’t been able to find a good source map for them. The closest I got was this 1903 map of the Kingdom of Greece. No idea if these provinces were altered after the post-Balkan and First World War expansions.

EDIT: Strange, the map isn't displayed for some reason. I'll just put in a direct link then.


http://img24.imageshack.us/i/752pxmapofgreece1903.png/

[Morgan Hauser]

And here is September 1939, moments prior to the invasion of Poland and the start of the war.

Note that I also made a change in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The border between its two sub-regions has now been turned into a properly dotted line while the other ones within it into much thinner ones, although I’m tempted to just remove them entirely from the map. I’ve never seen any evidence that a division of the territory between the surrounding gaue ever existed as anything other than a theoretical idea being pitched around in some circles of the Nazi government (or existed just for party-related activities among the population), while these two ‘lands’ were actual subdivisions used in its administration.

For those of you observing the map on such a hypnotically deep level that you would actually notice: no, that is not a mistake on the former Austro-German border. A small piece of land was apparantly moved from Tyrol into the Gau Schwaben (southwest Bavaria) after the Anschluss, called the Kleinwalsertal valley.

[Morgan Hauser]

And April 1940, after the dismemberment of Poland and the end of the Winter War, but before the start of hostilities in Western Europe with Operation Weserübung, the invasion of Norway and Denmark.

More to follow.

[LSCatilina]

Goods maps, but Alexadretta/Iskanderun must be
-1939 : or a puppet-state of Turke, or part of Turkey
-1940 : part of Turkey

[Morgan Hauser]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Goods maps, but Alexadretta/Iskanderun must be
-1939 : or a puppet-state of Turke, or part of Turkey
-1940 : part of Turkey

Nice catch - I'll make the changes and reupload the maps to my previous posts.

[Valdemar II]

A new improved map of Europe 1700