So I was reading the Joseph Ferdinand thread, and started thinking about other potential Spanish Monarchs. Luis I of Spain was the son of Philip V and Maria Luisa of Savoy and became King when Philip V abdicated for unknown reasons. He died just seven months later from smallpox. So lets say he never catches it or survives the infection. What would he reign look like? What would his policy to Italy be like in the case of his half-brothers from Elisabeth Farmese? He and his wife Louise Élisabeth d'Orléans didn't get along at all so would they reconcile or would Luis seek an annulment and rick angering France? What would happen with his father Philip? After all having two Kings and Queens at court would be fairly awkward.
WI: Luis I of Spain lives
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
A surviving Louis I of Spain would indeed be interesting. Given how unlucky their marriage was (neither one seemed to have been happy), I doubt there would have been children. This will make his (full) brother Ferdinand his heir.
However Elisabeth Farnese and Louise Elisabeth d'Orléans (wife of Louis I) also couldn't get along; anyway the role of Elisabeth Farnese will be smaller.
Nonetheless I can see Louis I defend the hereditary rights of his half brother Charles for Parma, Piacenza and Guastella. However ITTL he won't be the (first) Spanish candidate for the thrones of Naples and Sicily, instead Louis I would probably prefer his brother Ferdinand. Since like IOTL Spain will probably want to alter the situation in Italy, if the right situation arises.
However if Louis I would die childless and he would have succeeded in making his brother Ferdinand the king of Naples and Sicily, then there will start a carousel. Ferdinand* would become king of Spain, Charles* would succeed him in Naples and Sicily and Philip* (like OTL) would get Parma; because like IOTL the other powers wouldn't want Naples & Sicily joining with Spain.
(*= this would depend on the number of sons of Ferdinand, if he would have sons ITTL, then it would be more likely that he makes his second son king of Naples and Sicily; otherwise if he hasn't a son or only one son I can see such a carousel occuring)
However Elisabeth Farnese and Louise Elisabeth d'Orléans (wife of Louis I) also couldn't get along; anyway the role of Elisabeth Farnese will be smaller.
Nonetheless I can see Louis I defend the hereditary rights of his half brother Charles for Parma, Piacenza and Guastella. However ITTL he won't be the (first) Spanish candidate for the thrones of Naples and Sicily, instead Louis I would probably prefer his brother Ferdinand. Since like IOTL Spain will probably want to alter the situation in Italy, if the right situation arises.
However if Louis I would die childless and he would have succeeded in making his brother Ferdinand the king of Naples and Sicily, then there will start a carousel. Ferdinand* would become king of Spain, Charles* would succeed him in Naples and Sicily and Philip* (like OTL) would get Parma; because like IOTL the other powers wouldn't want Naples & Sicily joining with Spain.
(*= this would depend on the number of sons of Ferdinand, if he would have sons ITTL, then it would be more likely that he makes his second son king of Naples and Sicily; otherwise if he hasn't a son or only one son I can see such a carousel occuring)
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If Luis were to petition the pope for an annulment of his marriage to the daughter of the Regent, who might we see as the new queen of Spain?
And what would he use as grounds for the annulment? Consanguinity (his grandfather and her father were cousins, the same grandfather and her mother were brother and sister)? Or would he be more original in his request?
And what would happen to Louise-Elisabeth? Would she as OTL be returned to France? Would she be pushed into a convent, like several former Spanish queens who were also divorcees?
And what would he use as grounds for the annulment? Consanguinity (his grandfather and her father were cousins, the same grandfather and her mother were brother and sister)? Or would he be more original in his request?
And what would happen to Louise-Elisabeth? Would she as OTL be returned to France? Would she be pushed into a convent, like several former Spanish queens who were also divorcees?
I was hunting through Wikipedia and I can't find any available princesses in the right age group from the major catholic royal houses. The only possible I found was his brother Ferdinand VI's OTL wife Barbara of Portugal. It would either be her or one of his ex-wife's sisters. The only sister not married at the time wasPhilippine Élisabeth d'Orléan, who was engaged to his brother so thay could be really awkward. I'll have to check out some of the Italian Houses but Barbara is probably the best bet.
Consanguinity would probably be the reason for the annulment, unless being barren was a reason. Louise-Elizabeth would probably be sent back to France and would live out her life the same was she did OTL, forgotten and unloved
.He was only 14, and she was only 12 when they were married. He died only 3 1/2 years later, when they were still very young.
She was unhappy, but after a few more years she might have become happier with her position. If he became determined to beget an heir, she might at least submit.
That's unknowable. Why did he abdicate? No one knows, apparently. And he lived over 20 years longer. There's a theory that he hoped to gain the throne of France instead of Spain; but that wasn't on the books IMO.
Suppose that it was his reason, and that the plan fell through while Luis was still a minor. Would Phillip revoke his abdication? Could he do so? Would Luis consent? What would be the role of Elizabeth Farnese?
Scenario: Luis lives. Over the next four years, he becomes accustomed to being King, and Louise to being Queen. Both of them come to resent the influence of Elizabeth, and become reconciled against a common foe.
Meanwhile Philip discovers that his Spanish abdication doesn't restore his French claim. Oops. He tries to revoke his abdication, spurred by Elizabeth.
But Luis has been King for a while. He has his own coterie of favorites and ministers who would be displaced by the return of Philip, and Elizabeth's court faction has made enemies.
Luis refuses to step aside for his father. There is a bitter split in the court, but Luis is the King, and possession is nine-tenths of the law. In one of the weirdest episodes in European history, ex-King Philip and Elizabeth are exiled to France.
The are two schools of thought on why he abdicated. One theory suggests that Philip V, who exhibited many elements of mental instability during his reign, did not wish to reign due to his increasing mental decline.[9] A second theory puts the abdication in context of the Bourbon dynasty. The French royal family recently had lost many legitimate agnates to diseases, making the lack of an heir and another continental war of succession a possibility. Philip V was a legitimate descendant of Louis XIV, but matters were complicated by the Treaty of Utrecht, which forbade a union of the French and Spanish crowns. The theory supposes that Philip V hoped that by abdicating the Spanish crown he could circumvent the Treaty and succeed to the French throne. I got this strait from Wikipedia but it sounds pretty true.
I also found three instances of having an abdicated King, two from Spain itself. The first would be a contemporary of Luis I: Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia. He abdicated in 1730 after marrying his mistress. In 1731 he decided he wanted to return to the throne and told his son of his decision. He was promptly arrested and placed under house arrest untill his death a year later. The second instance happened in the nineteenth century: Carlos IV of Spain. Carlos abdicated in 1808 to save his favorite minister,Manuel de Godoy, from being killed in an uprising in Aranjuez. His son Ferdinand became King but was deposed by Napoleon. The Spanish royal family was held prisoner in France for several years but Carlos was freed in 1812 after accepting a pension from Napoleon. He and his wife Maria Luisa of Parma died in Rome in 1819. The third was Queen Isabella II. She was deposed in 1868 but didn't abdicate her rights until 1870 in favor of her son, Alfonso XII. She spent the rest of her life in France, except for short visits to Spain.
So the best bet about Philip V would be he decides he wants to retake the throne and is promptly arrested, along with Queen Elisabeth Farnese. They are either held in Spain or deported to France, where Philip used to be a Prince and would be the next highest ranked at court, as France would continue to call him King, sort of like with James II and his wife Mary Beatrice.
As for Luis I and Louise Élisabeth, I would guess that there would be a reconciliation. They were very young and I forgot to take that into acount. After all Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were married for 8 years before Madame Royal was born.
I wonder if Luis would intervene in Italy in favor of his brothers? It could go either way. Wanting to advance the House of Bourbon vs. helping the sons of the hated Elisabeth Farnese.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed
Another precedent for an abdicated king in 'Spain' (actually the union of the Crown of Castille and Aragon) is Carlos I (Charles/Karl/Karel V), who gradually abdicated in his various possessions mostly (the only exception was the Elective HRE, where he was succeeded by his brother Ferdinand I) in favor of his son Philip II (IIRC Philip I in Aragon).
A reason why Philip V returned, was that his son from his first marriage and his sons from his second marriages all weren't of age yet. Now if Luis I survives I doubt that Philip V will be persuaded to return.
Regarding the Italian policy of Luis I, he too will have intervened, if there was an opportunity. However IOTL Ferdinand VI of Spain (a brother of Luis I and not a half brother) will be a more likely Spanish candidate for Naples and Sicily ITTL, if such an opportunity arises ITTL. OTOH I do see Luis I helping OTL Charles III of Spain (his half brother) becoming duke of Parma, Piacenza & Guastella. I'm not sure about the Farnese claim on Tuscany though, besides like IOTL the other European Great Powers will have their own ambitions too.
A reason why Philip V returned, was that his son from his first marriage and his sons from his second marriages all weren't of age yet. Now if Luis I survives I doubt that Philip V will be persuaded to return.
Regarding the Italian policy of Luis I, he too will have intervened, if there was an opportunity. However IOTL Ferdinand VI of Spain (a brother of Luis I and not a half brother) will be a more likely Spanish candidate for Naples and Sicily ITTL, if such an opportunity arises ITTL. OTOH I do see Luis I helping OTL Charles III of Spain (his half brother) becoming duke of Parma, Piacenza & Guastella. I'm not sure about the Farnese claim on Tuscany though, besides like IOTL the other European Great Powers will have their own ambitions too.
I forgot about Charles V/I thanks. As for Philip, I think Ur underestimating Elisabeth Farnese's ambition and cunning. A woman like that is not going to stay in retirement for long, at least not voluntarily. I'm not sure about Fernadno/Ferdinand getting Naples and Sicily. OTL's Carlos III led the Spanish Army that conquered the Two Sicilies but I'm inclined to think that Luis would appoint his full Brother to lead the army and become King rather then a half-brother from the hated Elisabeth. However if Fernando dies childless like in OTL (though I think the fault lied with with wife Barbara of Portugal) then would Spain re-inherit the Two Sicilies or would it go to either Luis's second son (if one exists) or to another brother? With a extra brother I think that Don Carlos could keep the Duchy of Parma but I doubt he could keep both it and Tuscany. Tuscany would either go to Duke Francis of Lorraine like in OTL or to Emperor Charles VI, like how Parma was.
The king of Spain wasn't allowed to re-unite Spain with Naples & Sicily, like what happened IOTL with Charles III. So if Ferdinand would die childless, the most likely option would be a second son of Luis, if he doesn't have a second son, then his eldest half brother would be the most likely option. However if Charles of Parma (or maybe Tuscany) would become king of Naples & Sicily, the other Great Powers might demand some territorial exchanges. For instance Charles at best would need to abdicate his (grand?) duchy to a younger sibling (or his second son), at worst the Habsburgs would be able to receive it.
I always thought that was a bit odd myself. At its height, Austria had Austria itself, Bohemia, Hungary, the Austrian Netherlands and Naples and Sicily. U think the great powers would be more worried over that then Spain controlling Naples and Sicily. I wonder if Fernando would still marry Barbara of Portugal? If Luis' marriage to Louis Elisabeth is more sucessful then maybe Fernando would be married to one of her sisters. Philippine Élisabeth d'Orléans was closer in age but was engaged to Don Carlos but I think that happened after Luis' death so I'm not sure. Or there's the youngest sister Louise Diane d'Orléans, OTL wife of the Prince de Conti.
The problem isn't national, but dynastic; the other Great Powers didn't want to see the Bourbons repeat the Habsburgs during the reign of Charles V (and Ferdinand I).
Besides the Austrian Habsburgs gained Naples, Milan, the Southern Netherlands and Sardinia; as a compensation for the fact that a member of the house of Bourbon became king of Spain and the Spanish Colonies. Whereas previously all these possessions were (Spanish) Habsburg.
Besides the Austrian Habsburgs gained Naples, Milan, the Southern Netherlands and Sardinia; as a compensation for the fact that a member of the house of Bourbon became king of Spain and the Spanish Colonies. Whereas previously all these possessions were (Spanish) Habsburg.