What the title says. In OTL Albert Victor and Hélène weren't allowed to marry because of her religion. Hélène's father Prince Philippe, Comte de Paris, wouldn't let her convert to Anglicanism and when Hélène appealed to the Pope, neither would he. So lets say her father lets her convert, maybe seeing an advantage to his daughter being the future Queen of England. How would this marriage affect history? Would Albert Victor still die of pneumonia or would this be butterflied? If he still dies, would he die childless or leave an heir? Would such a marriage strengthen ties between Britain and France earlier?
WI:Prince Albert Victor married Princesse Hélène d'Orleans
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
There's a good year or so between the potential marriage and when he caught flu, so I would say that his early death is probably butterflied, yes. The circumstances of his life would be completely different by then - and being married, he would probably be living in a different palace, meaning that contagion patterns would be totally different. I honestly couldn't answer more though.
That's what I was thinking. Does anyone know his political views? Would he have made a good King?
Someday, I will write a story about Prince Albert Victor - King Edward VIII
Here's a favorable documentary on him, "Prince Eddy The King We Never Had": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUOnX2IDBk8&feature=related
Here's a favorable documentary on him, "Prince Eddy The King We Never Had": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUOnX2IDBk8&feature=related
wolf_brother
Banned
There'll be considerable uproar in France by the moderates and republicans, because it'll appear as though the British are attempting to legitimize the Orléanists - after all this is just a few years after the Law of Exile, the publishing of Prince Philippe's Pacte National, and the death of Boulanger, whom the Prince had supported. So in fact such a move would actually push France and Britain further away from each other.
Now, after saying that I'll qualify that last statement by saying that I sincerely doubt it would be enough to push them towards war or anything of the sort, but it would certainly cool the relations between the two, and even if they found themselves fighting on the same side I doubt you'd hear of the entente in such a timeline, or at least not in the glowing terms we known IOTL.
Now, after saying that I'll qualify that last statement by saying that I sincerely doubt it would be enough to push them towards war or anything of the sort, but it would certainly cool the relations between the two, and even if they found themselves fighting on the same side I doubt you'd hear of the entente in such a timeline, or at least not in the glowing terms we known IOTL.
So would such a marriage mean that Britain wouldn't side with France in WWI? After all it was the Anglo-French entente that opened the way for an alliance between Britain, France and Russia. I would think that King Albert (I don't know what he planned to call himself when he came to the throne) having a french wife would make him want to thaw the relations with the French. Also this would be a long shot but would having a French princess as the Queen of the UK restore interest in a Orleanest Restoration on the side of the French public?
wolf_brother
Banned
He'd rule as Edward VIII, his full name being Albert Victor Christian Edward and of those only Edward is an acceptable English regnal name; the OTL Edward VIII would be simply Duke of York after his father, OTL's George V, passed on.
As to WWI, assuming such a conflict breaks out roughly parallel to OTL (which is a very large assumption considering a POD over twenty years before hand), no, it wouldn't prevent the British and French from fighting on the same side. As I said, it would cool relations between the two, but not ice them over altogether or turn towards outright hostility. By the time of the Third Republic the French and British were economically and culturally intertwined. That isn't to say that war couldn't happen between them ever, but it'd take more than this marriage to change the state of affairs between the two to such a degree as to invite an actual conflict. The real differences will be in France regardless; see below.
For a Restored French monarchy, that's a bit more complicated (and a bit more in my area of specialty), but I'll say yes, and no. After Henri, Count of Chambord died the Legitimist option finally died with him, ending the idea of a 'fusionist' restoration of the monarchy. Afterward though during the 1885 elections the number of rightist MPs to the parliament more than doubled over their 1881 figures; however of the 201 right-wing deputies only some 86 of them were monarchists, the others split between conservative republicans and Bonapartists. The same is true for the 1889 elections, at the height of Boulangisme, of the 210 right-wing deputies only 86 of them were monarchists. So while there certainly was a surge of support for some form of a right-wing government in this period, I'm not sure I'd attribute enough of it to consider it strong support for a Second Restoration.
On the other hand while the opportunist republicans still easily held the majority (in an alliance with the moderate republicans and independent radicals) throughout the decade, the right-wing surge was a big part of what made the republican deputies so uneasy as to pass the 1886 Law of Exile; the other prime reason being Hélène's older sister, Amélie's, marriage to Prince Royal & Regent Carlos of Portugal in '86. So while Hélène's marriage to Albert Victor in, let's say late 1890, may not lead to strong support for a Second Restoration, it would very likely terrify the ruling republicans into believing that there was such support; which in and of itself could drastically change the political scene of the period. IOTL the French right-wing basically disintegrated after Boulanger; ITTL if the republicans make a knee-jerk reaction, which I believe they would, it could lead to the right solidify further gains; what's more, with Boulanger dead, and a viable monarchist alternative, the Orléanists might even able to rally the French right-wing for the first time since 1871; even if they only kept half of Boulangers' supporters from 1889 for the 1893 elections they'd still increase their representation in the parliament by another quarter of their OTL percentage - and all of their MPs would be in favor of a restoration, as opposed to merely conservative republicans working with monarchists on certain issues.
The big problem here for the Orléanists is that they weren't the only right-wing group with a new lease on life in the period - the Bonapartist also were beginning to rally again. While Prince Philippe was writing his Pacte National, Prince Victor Napoléon was organizing his Central Committee of Imperialist Appeal to the People. It was only because Victor Napoléon's committees fell apart into in-fighting that the Bonapartist cause died in 1893; with Orléanist sympathy gaining ground, perceived to be due to Hélène's marriage to Prince Albert Victor, Victor Napoléon would likely search for a bride himself - IOTL he didn't marry until he was 48 - which might mean the Bonaparists are able to stay strong enough to fracture the French right-wing, preventing either group from gaining enough support either among the populace or in the parliament to lead to a Second Restoration, either monarchical or imperialist. On the other hand if the Bonaparist committees do fall apart as in IOTL, then the monarchist will likely sweep up a considerable number of their supporters, so that they would a) unify the French right-wing for the first time since 1846, and b) continue to advance their gains during the 1898 elections. Now, if the Dreyfus affair happens as per IOTL, things get interesting, because IOTL there was nearly a monarchist coup in 1899 - ITTL the coup might be able to get off the ground. Whether or not it's ultimately successful is up in the air though. Prince Philippe, Duke of Orléans was a very different (read: more conservative) man from than his father, Prince Phillipe, Count of Paris, and, from what I can tell, didn't have a very strong relationship with Hélène beyond their family and their politics.
I hope that wasn't too overwhelming
As to WWI, assuming such a conflict breaks out roughly parallel to OTL (which is a very large assumption considering a POD over twenty years before hand), no, it wouldn't prevent the British and French from fighting on the same side. As I said, it would cool relations between the two, but not ice them over altogether or turn towards outright hostility. By the time of the Third Republic the French and British were economically and culturally intertwined. That isn't to say that war couldn't happen between them ever, but it'd take more than this marriage to change the state of affairs between the two to such a degree as to invite an actual conflict. The real differences will be in France regardless; see below.
For a Restored French monarchy, that's a bit more complicated (and a bit more in my area of specialty), but I'll say yes, and no. After Henri, Count of Chambord died the Legitimist option finally died with him, ending the idea of a 'fusionist' restoration of the monarchy. Afterward though during the 1885 elections the number of rightist MPs to the parliament more than doubled over their 1881 figures; however of the 201 right-wing deputies only some 86 of them were monarchists, the others split between conservative republicans and Bonapartists. The same is true for the 1889 elections, at the height of Boulangisme, of the 210 right-wing deputies only 86 of them were monarchists. So while there certainly was a surge of support for some form of a right-wing government in this period, I'm not sure I'd attribute enough of it to consider it strong support for a Second Restoration.
On the other hand while the opportunist republicans still easily held the majority (in an alliance with the moderate republicans and independent radicals) throughout the decade, the right-wing surge was a big part of what made the republican deputies so uneasy as to pass the 1886 Law of Exile; the other prime reason being Hélène's older sister, Amélie's, marriage to Prince Royal & Regent Carlos of Portugal in '86. So while Hélène's marriage to Albert Victor in, let's say late 1890, may not lead to strong support for a Second Restoration, it would very likely terrify the ruling republicans into believing that there was such support; which in and of itself could drastically change the political scene of the period. IOTL the French right-wing basically disintegrated after Boulanger; ITTL if the republicans make a knee-jerk reaction, which I believe they would, it could lead to the right solidify further gains; what's more, with Boulanger dead, and a viable monarchist alternative, the Orléanists might even able to rally the French right-wing for the first time since 1871; even if they only kept half of Boulangers' supporters from 1889 for the 1893 elections they'd still increase their representation in the parliament by another quarter of their OTL percentage - and all of their MPs would be in favor of a restoration, as opposed to merely conservative republicans working with monarchists on certain issues.
The big problem here for the Orléanists is that they weren't the only right-wing group with a new lease on life in the period - the Bonapartist also were beginning to rally again. While Prince Philippe was writing his Pacte National, Prince Victor Napoléon was organizing his Central Committee of Imperialist Appeal to the People. It was only because Victor Napoléon's committees fell apart into in-fighting that the Bonapartist cause died in 1893; with Orléanist sympathy gaining ground, perceived to be due to Hélène's marriage to Prince Albert Victor, Victor Napoléon would likely search for a bride himself - IOTL he didn't marry until he was 48 - which might mean the Bonaparists are able to stay strong enough to fracture the French right-wing, preventing either group from gaining enough support either among the populace or in the parliament to lead to a Second Restoration, either monarchical or imperialist. On the other hand if the Bonaparist committees do fall apart as in IOTL, then the monarchist will likely sweep up a considerable number of their supporters, so that they would a) unify the French right-wing for the first time since 1846, and b) continue to advance their gains during the 1898 elections. Now, if the Dreyfus affair happens as per IOTL, things get interesting, because IOTL there was nearly a monarchist coup in 1899 - ITTL the coup might be able to get off the ground. Whether or not it's ultimately successful is up in the air though. Prince Philippe, Duke of Orléans was a very different (read: more conservative) man from than his father, Prince Phillipe, Count of Paris, and, from what I can tell, didn't have a very strong relationship with Hélène beyond their family and their politics.
I hope that wasn't too overwhelming
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He'd rule as Edward VIII, his full name being Albert Victor Christian Edward and of those only Edward is an acceptable English regnal name; the OTL Edward VIII would be simply Duke of York after his father, OTL's George V, passed on.
As to WWI, assuming such a conflict breaks out roughly parallel to OTL (which is a very large assumption considering a POD over twenty years before hand), no, it wouldn't prevent the British and French from fighting on the same side. As I said, it would cool relations between the two, but not ice them over altogether or turn towards outright hostility.
For a Restored French monarchy, that's a bit more complicated (and a bit more in my area of specialty), but I'll say yes, and no. After Henri, Count of Chambord died the Legitimist option finally died with him, ending the idea of a 'fusionist' restoration of the monarchy. Afterward though during the 1885 elections the number of rightist MPs to the parliament more than doubled over their 1881 figures; however of the 201 right-wing deputies only some 86 of them were monarchists, the others split between conservative republicans and Bonapartists. The same is true for the 1889 elections, at the height of Boulangisme, of the 210 right-wing deputies only 86 of them were monarchists. So while there certainly was a surge of support for some form of a right-wing government in this period, I'm not sure I'd attribute enough of it to consider it strong support for a Second Restoration.
On the other hand while the opportunist republicans still easily held the majority (in an alliance with the moderate republicans and independent radicals) throughout the decade, the right-wing surge was a big part of what made the republican deputies so uneasy as to pass the 1886 Law of Exile; the other prime reason being Hélène's older sister, Amélie's, marriage to Prince Royal & Regent Carlos of Portugal in '86. So while Hélène's marriage to Albert Victor in, let's say late 1890, may not lead to strong support for a Second Restoration, it would very likely terrify the ruling republicans into believing that there was such support; which in and of itself could drastically change the political scene of the period. IOTL the French right-wing basically disintegrated after Boulanger; ITTL if the republicans make a knee-jerk reaction, which I believe they would, it could lead to the right solidify further gains; what's more, with Boulanger dead, and a viable monarchist alternative, the Orléanists might even able to rally the French right-wing for the first time since 1871; even if they only kept half of Boulangers' supporters from 1889 for the 1893 elections they'd still increase their representation in the parliament by another quarter of their OTL percentage - and all of their MPs would be in favor of a restoration, as opposed to merely conservative republicans working with monarchists on certain issues.
The big problem here for the Orléanists is that they weren't the only right-wing group with a new lease on life in the period - the Bonapartist also were beginning to rally again. While Prince Philippe was writing his Pacte National, Prince Victor Napoléon was organizing his Central Committee of Imperialist Appeal to the People. It was only because Victor Napoléon's committees fell apart into in-fighting that the Bonapartist cause died in 1893; with Orléanist sympathy gaining ground, perceived to be due to Hélène's marriage to Prince Albert Victor, Victor Napoléon would likely search for a bride himself - IOTL he didn't marry until he was 48.
I hope that wasn't too overwhelming
No it wasn't overwhelming very interesting
. Off topic U wouldn't happen to know much about french politics during the late Bourbon Restoration and early July monarchy, would U? Cause that would be a big help for my TL.So the perception of Britain backing the Orleanist cause could lead to a new lease on life for the monarchist movement. Perhaps Helene's father being greeted as King Philippe VII at her wedding would cause an even bigger reaction in France? I could definitely see Queen Victoria doing something like that or the Prince of Wales at least. As for the Bonapartists, any ideas for a bride for Prince Victor Napoleon? In OTL he married Princess Clementine of Belgium but they were only allowed to marry after Clementine's father, Leopold II, died. So I would assume that he would marry a noblewoman or a descendent of a Napoleonic royal family. After all no Royal house wanted to marry their daughter to Napoleon III when he had a throne, so why would they marry to a deposed Prince who's rival seems to have the backing of one of the most powerful nation in the world?
For some reason this makes me think of the idea that the Prince Imperial was going to marry Princess Beatrice. Now that make for awkward family holidays for Queen Victoria : the Bonaparte pretender as a son-in-law and the daughter of the Orleanist pretender as a granddaughter-in-law. Sounds like the setting of a historical soap opera.
wolf_brother
Banned
I sincerely doubt either Victoria or the Prince of Wales would make such a remark. Even if Albert Edward supported the Orléanists cause (which I've never read anything even remotely implying such), Victoria herself was very pro-Bonapartist, and had been since personally met with Napoléon III.
As for Victor Napoléon's potential brides, he might just marry his mistress, Beauclair Biot. Napoléon III after all didn't find any European royalty willing to marry him even after he became Emperor. Alternatively he could find a women of somewhat higher means to marry, though they'd be time taken out of directing his efforts towards an imperial restoration. If, however, he could convince one of the European monarchs to allow him to to be wed to royal princess, Archduchess Maria Annunciata of Austria would be a good match, both politically and at a personal level.
As to your off-topic question, not so much the early Restoration, but I have a passive understanding of the period and my Google fu is strong.
As for Victor Napoléon's potential brides, he might just marry his mistress, Beauclair Biot. Napoléon III after all didn't find any European royalty willing to marry him even after he became Emperor. Alternatively he could find a women of somewhat higher means to marry, though they'd be time taken out of directing his efforts towards an imperial restoration. If, however, he could convince one of the European monarchs to allow him to to be wed to royal princess, Archduchess Maria Annunciata of Austria would be a good match, both politically and at a personal level.
As to your off-topic question, not so much the early Restoration, but I have a passive understanding of the period and my Google fu is strong.
In her early reign Queen Victoria was friends with King Louis-Philippe and Queen Maria Amelia so its possible. Ur probably right about Queen Victoria not making such a comment but I could definitely see the Prince of Wales saying something like that. I remember reading that he demanded to either Frederick III or Wilhelm II (I can't remember which) that his Hanoverian cousin be restored to his throne (which had been annexed by the Prussians)on a state visit . So, again, Edward VII coming down with Foot-in-mouth syndrome isn't unthinkable.
Would Prince Victor Napoleon really marry his mistress? The Bonapartes were obsessed with being accepted as European Nobility so marrying a mistress would be a big step back. He would probably marry a member of an old noble house like his cousin Napoleon III, or a member of the Napoleonic Houses, like the Murats, or the Canino and Musignano Branch of the Bonapartes.
wolf_brother
Banned
A thought; in any scenario where Albert Victor and Hélène are wed it's highly unlikely that Hélène's younger sister, Isabelle, would be wed to her cousin Jean, Duke of Guise. Instead, and especially if we're looking at an Orléanist Restoration, she would likely be wed to her first love - Albert, the IOTL future King of Belgium; Leopold II only rejected the proposal due to not wanting to piss off republican France.
This would effectively mean that by the dawn of the 20th century there would be Orléanists on the thrones of Britain, France, and Belgium, and Orléanists pretenders in Brazil and Spain. EDIT: Also familial connections with the royal houses of Portugal, Italy, and Austria-Hungary.
This would effectively mean that by the dawn of the 20th century there would be Orléanists on the thrones of Britain, France, and Belgium, and Orléanists pretenders in Brazil and Spain. EDIT: Also familial connections with the royal houses of Portugal, Italy, and Austria-Hungary.
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The reemergence of monarchy
. Now that sounds awesome. I wonder if a Orleanist France would be more reluctant to go to war with Germany. After all the last monarchist Restoration ended after a defeat against Prussia. Or would it make war more likely, an attempt to use a war to shore up their power at home? I wonder who Helene's brother would marry in such a scenario? Maybe his sister-in-law Princess Victoria? Unlikely but it does sound cool.wolf_brother
Banned
This idea has really captivated me, and as such I refuse to let this thread die.
With a POD of Prince Philippe having a change of heart in let's say, mid 1889, the engagement announcement by that Christmas, with the couple married in late 1890, there's going to be some immediate reactions across Europe.
In Germany, Bismarck is already out of power by this time, ousted by both newly-raised Emperor Wilhelm and by the Catholic Center Party which has taken control following the 1890 elections. The German Chancellor is now Leo von Caprivi, and between him and Wilhelm the course of Germany's Neuer Kurs are soon clear with the 1890 Anglo-German agreement. I think the real change would be that, with a royal wedding tying the British royals and the Orléanists in mid-1890, it's clear much earlier than IOTL that France's diplomatic isolation is either at the end or near-to it, so the German-Russian Reinsurance Treaty is renewed in late 1890. von Caprivi is very likely still going to lose power when he tries to reintegrate the Catholic church into the German education system and is blocked by the other major parties. Here, Wilhelm appoints the young and very conservative Botho zu Eulenburg, the Prussian Prime Minister, as Chancellor, as opposed to IOTL where he passed over him and appointed the aged and fairly moderate Chlodwig, Prince of Hohenlohe to succeed as Chancellor. Eulenburg had a very Bismarckian outlook, but IMO wise enough to defer to the Emperor on most matters of importance. As such we're looking going to see the Anti-Socialist Laws renewed in 1891 (IOTL they were allowed to expire).
Now, come the 1893 elections I think the Social Democrats would do even better than they did IOTL, due to the perceived failings of all the other major parties - The Center for the education fiasco, the National Liberals and Conservatives for the issue of France, and for maintaining an alliance with Russia while trying to integrate themselves with the British while those two nations have a growing rivalry, and all the parties for continuing the highly unpopular Anti-Socialist Laws - and might even be able to translate that into real gains ITTL. IOTL while the Social Democrats won the plurality of the vote, due to the German electoral system which unequally favored rural constituencies they only gained a fraction of seats in the Reichstag, an issue that plagued the party in every election from 1890 until 1912. ITTL however in general I see the left doing better overall, with the Social Democrats, Free-Minded People's, and People's parties making solid gains in 1893, while right-wing parties like the Conservatives, National Liberals, Free Conservative/Imperial, German-Hanoverian, and Bavarian Peasants parties doing much worse ITTL. This means Eulenburg either is forced to bring the Social Democrats into the government coalition, or has to make a very broad alliance of of very different groups in order to avoid the first option. Either way I don't think he would be up to the task of keeping the parliament on track 100% of the time, and so I see the Reichstag spending more time working on 'socialist' measures like finally defeating the Anti-Socialist Laws and likely extending some of Bismarck's state socialist measures, which isn't gong to please Wilhelm at all as he wants to focus on colonial adventures and building up his pet navy.
As such sometime around early '97 he'd likely remove Eulenburg and appoint someone else as Chancellor who'd be more 'iron fisted' in enforcing the Emperor's will on the fractious parliament. IMHO he'd likely go for someone like Alfred von Waldersee, who had been calling for even harsher measures against the Social Democrats for sometime, and who had already been burnt by Wilhelm once and thus knew what it would take to work with the young hot-headed Emperor. However when von Waldersee and his few conservative allies tries to force through an extension of the Anti-Socialist Laws, he's decisively defeated by not only the Social Democrats, but also members from the Center party which break ranks over the issue. The whole thing turns into a major crisis which completely changes the German political map and brings the German government to a standstill until the 1898 elections, in which the right-wing parties are decisively defeated and it becomes obvious that it would be impossible to form a government without a coalition of both the Social Democrats and the newly constituted Independent Center. Wilhelm tries to rule by decree without either a Chancellor or the approval of the Reichstag for a time, as he's already turned much of the Bismarckian machinery to his disposal earlier in his reign, such as making the various cabinet ministers answerable directly to the Emperor, not the Chancellor (or the parliament), but this ultimately fails as the parliament continues to shot down any legislation he proposes, and those who would side with him are too small of a minority. Finally, Wilhelm is forced to back down in face of mounting public pressure as well as on the advice of his British family members, and appoints a new Chancellor - the relatively unknown Friedrich Krafft von Crailsheim, Minister-President of Bavaria - who is acceptable to all sides involved.
This means that Germany is asleep at the wheel when the Orléanist Restoration takes place in Paris in 1899, and by the time the Germans have their feet underneath them again, the French are just as stable and organized as well.
As an aside, this also means that the German colonial empire is much smaller; Germany would likely be less involved in putting down the Boxer Rebellion, and so the German concessions would be smaller, if they existed at all ITTL. As well following the Spanish-American War the Caroline & Northern Mariana Islands and Palau likely go to, either in total or divided between, Britain, Japan, or the US, while the US definitely picks up all of the Samoas, instead of those islands being sold to Germany. On the other hand German Togoland would retain the Yendi and the Volta Triangle since they would never be traded away to Britain in return for the pacific colonies. So a smaller, but more compact, more concentrated colonial empire.
EDIT: Oh, and no German Naval Laws.
With a POD of Prince Philippe having a change of heart in let's say, mid 1889, the engagement announcement by that Christmas, with the couple married in late 1890, there's going to be some immediate reactions across Europe.
In Germany, Bismarck is already out of power by this time, ousted by both newly-raised Emperor Wilhelm and by the Catholic Center Party which has taken control following the 1890 elections. The German Chancellor is now Leo von Caprivi, and between him and Wilhelm the course of Germany's Neuer Kurs are soon clear with the 1890 Anglo-German agreement. I think the real change would be that, with a royal wedding tying the British royals and the Orléanists in mid-1890, it's clear much earlier than IOTL that France's diplomatic isolation is either at the end or near-to it, so the German-Russian Reinsurance Treaty is renewed in late 1890. von Caprivi is very likely still going to lose power when he tries to reintegrate the Catholic church into the German education system and is blocked by the other major parties. Here, Wilhelm appoints the young and very conservative Botho zu Eulenburg, the Prussian Prime Minister, as Chancellor, as opposed to IOTL where he passed over him and appointed the aged and fairly moderate Chlodwig, Prince of Hohenlohe to succeed as Chancellor. Eulenburg had a very Bismarckian outlook, but IMO wise enough to defer to the Emperor on most matters of importance. As such we're looking going to see the Anti-Socialist Laws renewed in 1891 (IOTL they were allowed to expire).
Now, come the 1893 elections I think the Social Democrats would do even better than they did IOTL, due to the perceived failings of all the other major parties - The Center for the education fiasco, the National Liberals and Conservatives for the issue of France, and for maintaining an alliance with Russia while trying to integrate themselves with the British while those two nations have a growing rivalry, and all the parties for continuing the highly unpopular Anti-Socialist Laws - and might even be able to translate that into real gains ITTL. IOTL while the Social Democrats won the plurality of the vote, due to the German electoral system which unequally favored rural constituencies they only gained a fraction of seats in the Reichstag, an issue that plagued the party in every election from 1890 until 1912. ITTL however in general I see the left doing better overall, with the Social Democrats, Free-Minded People's, and People's parties making solid gains in 1893, while right-wing parties like the Conservatives, National Liberals, Free Conservative/Imperial, German-Hanoverian, and Bavarian Peasants parties doing much worse ITTL. This means Eulenburg either is forced to bring the Social Democrats into the government coalition, or has to make a very broad alliance of of very different groups in order to avoid the first option. Either way I don't think he would be up to the task of keeping the parliament on track 100% of the time, and so I see the Reichstag spending more time working on 'socialist' measures like finally defeating the Anti-Socialist Laws and likely extending some of Bismarck's state socialist measures, which isn't gong to please Wilhelm at all as he wants to focus on colonial adventures and building up his pet navy.
As such sometime around early '97 he'd likely remove Eulenburg and appoint someone else as Chancellor who'd be more 'iron fisted' in enforcing the Emperor's will on the fractious parliament. IMHO he'd likely go for someone like Alfred von Waldersee, who had been calling for even harsher measures against the Social Democrats for sometime, and who had already been burnt by Wilhelm once and thus knew what it would take to work with the young hot-headed Emperor. However when von Waldersee and his few conservative allies tries to force through an extension of the Anti-Socialist Laws, he's decisively defeated by not only the Social Democrats, but also members from the Center party which break ranks over the issue. The whole thing turns into a major crisis which completely changes the German political map and brings the German government to a standstill until the 1898 elections, in which the right-wing parties are decisively defeated and it becomes obvious that it would be impossible to form a government without a coalition of both the Social Democrats and the newly constituted Independent Center. Wilhelm tries to rule by decree without either a Chancellor or the approval of the Reichstag for a time, as he's already turned much of the Bismarckian machinery to his disposal earlier in his reign, such as making the various cabinet ministers answerable directly to the Emperor, not the Chancellor (or the parliament), but this ultimately fails as the parliament continues to shot down any legislation he proposes, and those who would side with him are too small of a minority. Finally, Wilhelm is forced to back down in face of mounting public pressure as well as on the advice of his British family members, and appoints a new Chancellor - the relatively unknown Friedrich Krafft von Crailsheim, Minister-President of Bavaria - who is acceptable to all sides involved.
This means that Germany is asleep at the wheel when the Orléanist Restoration takes place in Paris in 1899, and by the time the Germans have their feet underneath them again, the French are just as stable and organized as well.
As an aside, this also means that the German colonial empire is much smaller; Germany would likely be less involved in putting down the Boxer Rebellion, and so the German concessions would be smaller, if they existed at all ITTL. As well following the Spanish-American War the Caroline & Northern Mariana Islands and Palau likely go to, either in total or divided between, Britain, Japan, or the US, while the US definitely picks up all of the Samoas, instead of those islands being sold to Germany. On the other hand German Togoland would retain the Yendi and the Volta Triangle since they would never be traded away to Britain in return for the pacific colonies. So a smaller, but more compact, more concentrated colonial empire.
EDIT: Oh, and no German Naval Laws.
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Wow! Glad to know I'm not the only one that doesn't want this thread to die. Now I really want to write a TL about this. LOL I know little to nothing about the politics of the era and I'm already trying plan this out in my head.
! Glad to know I'm not the only one that doesn't want this thread to die. Now I really want to write a TL about this. LOL I know little to nothing about the politics of the era and I'm already trying plan this out in my head.wolf_brother
Banned
Well you'll certainly have alot of material to work with
Looking for other reactions across Europe, specifically in Spain, I'm struck by how much the Spanish wished to avoid the OTL Spanish-American War, and how it was expected in Europe that the former would prevail.
I'm wondering if Wilhelm, being Wilhelm, wouldn't seize upon the opportunity to do something foolish, in an attempt to distract the German people from the constitutional crisis at home while rallying them to his side, and prove his, and Germany's worth, and order his East Asia Squadron under Prince Henry to continue to openly support the Spanish forces in Manilla after the Germans originally backed down when the Americans called them out for it.
Looking for other reactions across Europe, specifically in Spain, I'm struck by how much the Spanish wished to avoid the OTL Spanish-American War, and how it was expected in Europe that the former would prevail.
I'm wondering if Wilhelm, being Wilhelm, wouldn't seize upon the opportunity to do something foolish, in an attempt to distract the German people from the constitutional crisis at home while rallying them to his side, and prove his, and Germany's worth, and order his East Asia Squadron under Prince Henry to continue to openly support the Spanish forces in Manilla after the Germans originally backed down when the Americans called them out for it.
Few thoughts
There will be considerable problems in Britain over the marriage irrespective of an Anglican conversion. Anti-Catholic sentiment was still pretty strong as was evidenced when Princess Beatrice's daughter Victoria Eugenie converted to RC to marry the King of Spain a few year's later.
Within the Royal Family - Queen Victoria and the Princess of Wales were both pretty much in favour of the match and would have welcomed her.
There is still a pretty strong chance that Princess May would have married George Duke of York as she was also a favourite with the elderly Queen, George was fond of her and in this scenario his only other attraction to the future Queen of Romania was even more likely to be rejected.
Domestically I don't think it would affect British policy to France - Edward VII was a reknowned Francophile whether it was republican or royal - his distaste for his nephew the Kaiser and his wife's notorious anti-prussian feelings would have pushed him still towards the Anglo French entente enacted during his brief reign which he pushed and argued for with his ministers.
Incidentally someone mentioned his comments referencing the annexation of Hannover (that was def down to his wife - her sister was married to the heir to Hannover).
As to the French reaction - i am not well informed enough to comment but when Alexander III and his wife were pushing the future Nicholas II to marry Helene (their preferred choice) they were convinced the marriage would cement the Franco Russian alliance.
As to a King Edward VIII and Queen Helen succeeding in 1910 - most people believe he had Liberal leanings especially over Irish home rule - in fact their were discussions at his death of making him Viceroy of Ireland - which with a formerly Catholic wife might (and it is a big might) have made a very big difference to Anglo Irish relations.
There will be considerable problems in Britain over the marriage irrespective of an Anglican conversion. Anti-Catholic sentiment was still pretty strong as was evidenced when Princess Beatrice's daughter Victoria Eugenie converted to RC to marry the King of Spain a few year's later.
Within the Royal Family - Queen Victoria and the Princess of Wales were both pretty much in favour of the match and would have welcomed her.
There is still a pretty strong chance that Princess May would have married George Duke of York as she was also a favourite with the elderly Queen, George was fond of her and in this scenario his only other attraction to the future Queen of Romania was even more likely to be rejected.
Domestically I don't think it would affect British policy to France - Edward VII was a reknowned Francophile whether it was republican or royal - his distaste for his nephew the Kaiser and his wife's notorious anti-prussian feelings would have pushed him still towards the Anglo French entente enacted during his brief reign which he pushed and argued for with his ministers.
Incidentally someone mentioned his comments referencing the annexation of Hannover (that was def down to his wife - her sister was married to the heir to Hannover).
As to the French reaction - i am not well informed enough to comment but when Alexander III and his wife were pushing the future Nicholas II to marry Helene (their preferred choice) they were convinced the marriage would cement the Franco Russian alliance.
As to a King Edward VIII and Queen Helen succeeding in 1910 - most people believe he had Liberal leanings especially over Irish home rule - in fact their were discussions at his death of making him Viceroy of Ireland - which with a formerly Catholic wife might (and it is a big might) have made a very big difference to Anglo Irish relations.
wolf_brother
Banned
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Albert Victor propose a dual monarchy similar to Austria-Hungary to resolve the Irish Question?
EDIT: Nope, that was his father, Edward VII.
EDIT: Nope, that was his father, Edward VII.
So the consensus seems to be that a marriage between Prince Albert Victor and Princess,Helene could end up causing an Orleanist restoration. Would an Orleanist restoration in,i think Wolf said 1899 or 1900, mean a closer alliance between Britain France and Russia? With th em all being Monarchies? Also random thought would this somehow effrct the portuguese revolution in 1910? With France being a monarcht again would that make the portuguese think twice about being, brsides Switzerland, Europes only republic?
A consensus that it's plausible possibility - sure. A consensus that "A" could realistically result in "B" - no.
wolf_brother
Banned
TBH, it's not like anyone else has proposed an alternative chain of events, or even questioned the probability of mine.