Help on my TL, Please read

Onyx

Banned
Attention AH.com, I need help on people to review and consider my ideas for my ultimate as legitimate and NOT considered ASB when I post it

It is covering Medieval Times from 1000 to 1500 and it will cover from England to Japan.

There are numerous PODs and ideas for my AH that I need serious help on for review

If anyone has a good preference on Medieval history it will be grateful that you try and help me out

As of now, I need someone who is well good in Japanese history at that time ASAP as Im trying to solve a certain POD that caould be considered ASB.

Thank you
 

Onyx

Banned
I can give some examples:
Saxons win Hastings
Khitai or the Liao Dynasty survives and the Khitai stay in Northen China than going west to become the Kara-Khitai
The Rota system of the Rus Principalities collapse therefore independent Rus Principalities (Still working on this)
Earlier creation of Serbian Kingdom
Basil II has a son
Yoshitsune, brother to Yoritomo of the Minamoto, survives but becomes kinda the opposite version that is seen in OTL (Thats all I can say to everyone right now, but theres more and its real complicated) and unites Japan after his brother's (The real first Shogun Yoritomo) death and defeats the Hojo Regents (Who were the real men in power in the Kamakura Shogunate and contributed to it's fall) and Japan becomes a strong centralized and powerful Shogunate up until the Sengoku Jidai
 
Khitai or the Liao Dynasty survives and the Khitai stay in Northen China than going west to become the Kara-Khitai

What happens to the Jurchen? If they fail to break free of Khitan influence, let alone subjugating them, then it's possible for Goryeo to seize some holdings in what is now southeastern Manchuria. This will eventually cause further butterflies after the Liao is pushed westward, as Goryeo will seek to control Liaodong.
 

Onyx

Banned
What happens to the Jurchen? If they fail to break free of Khitan influence, let alone subjugating them, then it's possible for Goryeo to seize some holdings in what is now southeastern Manchuria. This will eventually cause further butterflies after the Liao is pushed westward, as Goryeo will seek to control Liaodong.

Dont know, Im having the Khitai maintain Northern China and not moving west, my main point is that the Khitai survive by not going west and continue to maintain themselves in Northern China.

Not sure about the Jurchen, maybe theyll be absorbed into the Khitai, and I doubt Goryeo will go all the way to Liaodong
 
Dont know, Im having the Khitai maintain Northern China and not moving west, my main point is that the Khitai survive by not going west and continue to maintain themselves in Northern China.

Not sure about the Jurchen, maybe theyll be absorbed into the Khitai, and I doubt Goryeo will go all the way to Liaodong

The problem with this assumption is that the Liao only controlled 16 prefectures of North China, and never controlled a significant portion of the entire area. The main reason for its inability to expand further south was mainly due to Goryeo's stiff resistance, as the Khitan conducted three campaigns during the late 10th-early 11th centuries, sending hundreds of thousands of troops during each one. Although they temporarily overran several border fortresses, they ultimately failed to conquer Korea.

I guess it would be possible for the Jurchen to be absorbed, but you would have to come up with the specific conditions, because the Jurchen were originally located in what is now southern Manchuria and the northern Korean Peninsula, and were generally left alone. As a result, regardless of the situation, they would probably still be able to establish a base around the area after trying to balance interests between the Liao and Goryeo. Also, IOTL, Jurchen allied with the Song in 1115, and while the former managed to take over Khitan territory, the Chinese barely made any gains. In other words, considering that the Song continuously failed to push back the Khitan, Jurchen, and the Mongols, it would require numerous butterflies for a corresponding dynasty ITTL to push the Khitan further west. On the other hand, if the Jurchen cease to exist as a separate entity, Goryeo would still be able to push into northeastern Manchuria after several border raids.

Liaodong was literally across the Liao River, so it would be natural for Goryeo to focus on that area after establishing itself in southeastern Manchuria, with no Jurchens to resist them. You also have to realize that after the Mongols began to weaken around the mid-14th century due to uprisings in China, Goryeo actually managed to temporarily occupy Liaodong around 1360-70, before it was eventually forced to give it up due to political strife. As it viewed itself as a successor to Goguryeo, and because the military dictatorship lasted from 1170-1270, Goryeo would be intent on "reclaiming" lost territory either shortly before or during the Liao's collapse. In fact, the Song would probably ally with Goryeo in order to recover the Sixteen Prefectures, and let the latter control Liaodong in return for cooperating.
 

Onyx

Banned
The problem with this assumption is that the Liao only controlled 16 prefectures of North China, and never controlled a significant portion of the entire area. The main reason for its inability to expand further south was mainly due to Goryeo's stiff resistance, as the Khitan conducted three campaigns during the late 10th-early 11th centuries, sending hundreds of thousands of troops during each one. Although they temporarily overran several border fortresses, they ultimately failed to conquer Korea.

I guess it would be possible for the Jurchen to be absorbed, but you would have to come up with the specific conditions, because the Jurchen were originally located in what is now southern Manchuria and the northern Korean Peninsula, and were generally left alone. As a result, regardless of the situation, they would probably still be able to establish a base around the area after trying to balance interests between the Liao and Goryeo. Also, IOTL, Jurchen allied with the Song in 1115, and while the former managed to take over Khitan territory, the Chinese barely made any gains. In other words, considering that the Song continuously failed to push back the Khitan, Jurchen, and the Mongols, it would require numerous butterflies for a corresponding dynasty ITTL to push the Khitan further west. On the other hand, if the Jurchen cease to exist as a separate entity, Goryeo would still be able to push into northeastern Manchuria after several border raids.

Liaodong was literally across the Liao River, so it would be natural for Goryeo to focus on that area after establishing itself in southeastern Manchuria, with no Jurchens to resist them. You also have to realize that after the Mongols began to weaken around the mid-14th century due to uprisings in China, Goryeo actually managed to temporarily occupy Liaodong around 1360-70, before it was eventually forced to give it up due to political strife. As it viewed itself as a successor to Goguryeo, and because the military dictatorship lasted from 1170-1270, Goryeo would be intent on "reclaiming" lost territory either shortly before or during the Liao's collapse. In fact, the Song would probably ally with Goryeo in order to recover the Sixteen Prefectures, and let the latter control Liaodong in return for cooperating.

The Khitais ARENT going west thats what Im saying...
 
The Khitais ARENT going west thats what Im saying...

Never mind. I misread your second post because the part I was referring to wasn't a complete sentence, and the grammatical structure confused me, which would have been clearer if you wrote "instead of" in place of "than," which I confused with "then." Please try to write more coherently next time.

However, you're still not addressing my general points. How are the Khitan going to manage if the Song and Goryeo manage to form an alliance and push deep into Liao territory by attacking from two fronts? Also, the lack of the Jurchen means that Goryeo will still continuously attempt to push into Manchuria, as it would have greater successes against a power that is not solely concentrated in southern Manchuria.
 
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Onyx

Banned
Never mind. I misread your second post because the part I was referring to wasn't a complete sentence, and the grammatical structure confused me, which would have been clearer if you wrote "instead of" in place of "than," which I confused with "then." Please try to write more coherently next time.

However, you're still not addressing my general points. How are the Khitan going to manage if the Song and Goryeo manage to form an alliance and push deep into Liao territory by attacking from two fronts? Also, the lack of the Jurchen means that Goryeo will still continuously attempt to push into Manchuria, as it would have greater successes against a power that is not solely concentrated in southern Manchuria.

Its okay.

Anyways, the Khitai are still in there height of power in 1000 until 1031 by the death of the Emperor Shengzong, who was the ruler at the Khitai's height. There was a treay he made against the Song when he defeated them by conquering all the way outside of Kaifeng. The treaty as called was Chanyuan, it basically established cordial relations with the Song and finalized the borders between the two. However it also was very humiliating to the Song since they had to give them tons of tributary to the Khitai. I think this part may have been the nail in the coffin of the Song to defeat the Khitai by allying with the Jurchen. If I can find a way of a POD to prevent this, I think the Khitai can survive and maintain good relations with the Song and not have them ally with Goryeo or Jurchens.

Now onto Goryeo. The Khitai faced a huge defeat in 1018 in a battle with Goryeo in the Third War between the two. However by 1019 they had already assembled another large army to march on the Goryeo and
at this point both sides realized that they could not defeat each other militarily and made peace until the end of the Liao Dynasty. I can have the Khitai protect there territory at the Yalu from stopping Goryeo from encroaching them, but this needs work from what you said.

I think basically what brought the downfall of the Khitai were the Jurchens. To branch them from destroying the Khitai is to have them be absorbed into the Khitai. This can probably work, but some Jurchens will still refuse and possibly revolt still.
The Liao Dynasty after Shengzong declined and when the Jurchen revolted, the Liao were weak and couldnt stop the threat.
Maybe durng the revolt, the Liao get themselves together to some miltiary commander and defeat the Jurchen and succeed in absorbing the Jurchens after there victory and probably starting a new Khitai dynasty. This doesnt stop the intentions from the Song and even Goryeo, so this needs some tweaking

Thank you for considering, I think we should talk more on the PM
 

scholar

Banned
What happens to the Jurchen? If they fail to break free of Khitan influence, let alone subjugating them, then it's possible for Goryeo to seize some holdings in what is now southeastern Manchuria. This will eventually cause further butterflies after the Liao is pushed westward, as Goryeo will seek to control Liaodong.
I think its fate that we keep meeting like this. :p

I think you're putting too much faith in Goryeo's ability to expand, something that historically it didn't have or didn't readily act on. Typically speaking the country was simply the successor to Unified Silla and didn't even expand outside OTL's borders for North Korea. It resisted campaigns against it, and once even established advanced border forts, but it showed no real capacity to expand very far. Liaodong may be the closest significant portion of China, but the mere act of controlling it would require the country to nearly grow an extra 50% at a minimum and would suffer the strain of controlling such a populous. As well as the strain of invading that far. The same geographical features that help protect it when being invaded hinder it from expanding far outside of the country.

Not only that, but Goryeo didn't engage in full scale campaigns against the Jurchens. Actually, they were more than content with the tribute they received from them and, as far as I'm aware, never tried to conquer them. It is one thing to muse on possible hypotheticals, but I think you're going a bit beyond that. Rather, it appears as though you believe that this was a very real, even likely possibility. Color me unconvinced.
 
Its okay.

Anyways, the Khitai are still in there height of power in 1000 until 1031 by the death of the Emperor Shengzong, who was the ruler at the Khitai's height. There was a treay he made against the Song when he defeated them by conquering all the way outside of Kaifeng. The treaty as called was Chanyuan, it basically established cordial relations with the Song and finalized the borders between the two. However it also was very humiliating to the Song since they had to give them tons of tributary to the Khitai. I think this part may have been the nail in the coffin of the Song to defeat the Khitai by allying with the Jurchen. If I can find a way of a POD to prevent this, I think the Khitai can survive and maintain good relations with the Song and not have them ally with Goryeo or Jurchens.

I know about the treaty, but you'll have to come up with specifics before asking any further questions. The Khitan can't be weak enough before 1000 for the Song and/or Goryeo to make inroads, but having them expand further south would cause further problems, as they would almost certainly face a two-front war with the Song and Goryeo.

Now onto Goryeo. The Khitai faced a huge defeat in 1018 in a battle with Goryeo in the Third War between the two. However by 1019 they had already assembled another large army to march on the Goryeo and
at this point both sides realized that they could not defeat each other militarily and made peace until the end of the Liao Dynasty. I can have the Khitai protect there territory at the Yalu from stopping Goryeo from encroaching them, but this needs work from what you said.

I think basically what brought the downfall of the Khitai were the Jurchens. To branch them from destroying the Khitai is to have them be absorbed into the Khitai. This can probably work, but some Jurchens will still refuse and possibly revolt still.
The Liao Dynasty after Shengzong declined and when the Jurchen revolted, the Liao were weak and couldnt stop the threat.
Maybe durng the revolt, the Liao get themselves together to some miltiary commander and defeat the Jurchen and succeed in absorbing the Jurchens after there victory and probably starting a new Khitai dynasty. This doesnt stop the intentions from the Song and even Goryeo, so this needs some tweaking

Thank you for considering, I think we should talk more on the PM

In terms of Goryeo, it adapted a hostile stance towards the Khitan because it had overrun Balhae, and when the Liao sent 50 camels in order to establish friendly relations, Taejo of Goryeo actually starved them to death. As a result, if the Liao began to show any signs of weakness, it is possible that Goryeo would attempt to push north in order to "restore" former Balhae and Goguryeo territory. IOTL, although Khitan control was strong in Liaodong, it generally left the tribes in southern Manchuria alone, which eventually led the Jurchen to conquer the Khitan after establishing friendly relations with Goryeo.

You are certainly welcome to PM me, although you should probably do more research in order to ask me more specific questions.

I think its fate that we keep meeting like this. :p

I think you're putting too much faith in Goryeo's ability to expand, something that historically it didn't have or didn't readily act on. Typically speaking the country was simply the successor to Unified Silla and didn't even expand outside OTL's borders for North Korea. It resisted campaigns against it, and once even established advanced border forts, but it showed no real capacity to expand very far. Liaodong may be the closest significant portion of China, but the mere act of controlling it would require the country to nearly grow an extra 50% at a minimum and would suffer the strain of controlling such a populous. As well as the strain of invading that far. The same geographical features that help protect it when being invaded hinder it from expanding far outside of the country.

Not only that, but Goryeo didn't engage in full scale campaigns against the Jurchens. Actually, they were more than content with the tribute they received from them and, as far as I'm aware, never tried to conquer them. It is one thing to muse on possible hypotheticals, but I think you're going a bit beyond that. Rather, it appears as though you believe that this was a very real, even likely possibility. Color me unconvinced.

I don't think it's fate at all, as for almost a year, I have been the only one in this entire forum who has discussed matters in detail concerning Korean history from prehistoric times to the present, and you're one of very few who is able to thoroughly discuss matters concerning East Asia in general. This also makes it very difficult for me, as I have to come up with countless scenarios by myself by relying on primary/secondary sources in Korean, limited in scope, that other people generally can't consult, and people know much more about China and Japan than about Korea due to the relative lack of sources concerning the latter.

Anyway, Goryeo temporarily expanded into a very small portion of southeastern Manchuria, and later took control of Liaodong for about a decade or so. That being said, it never managed to retain either area for long. However, expanding into areas north of the Yalu and the Tumen Rivers would require not only soldiers to migrate north and establish fortifications, but also for farmers to head north in order to produce agricultural products for the long run. In other words, although a significant amount of resources would be spent on maintaining a stable force along the border for several decades, the individual areas would eventually become self-sufficient within 50-100 years or so. Also, the expansion would be gradual, not sudden, so starting around 1050 or so, it would probably take about 50-75 years to control significant amounts of eastern Manchuria, then another 50-100 or so to take over Liaodong once the Khitan begin to fall apart. In terms of the population figures, Goryeo probably had around 8-10 million after Balhae refugees streamed in from the north, and only about 1-3 million would be able to gradually establish themselves in the northern regions after about 100-150 years or so.

Also, the reason for Goryeo's possible ability to conduct these actions is precisely that the Jurchen probably won't be a coherent entity, which would make it very difficult for the Khitan to retain its holdings in Manchuria once it starts disintegrating. There is also no particular reason for Goryeo to not ally with the Song if the former controls portions of southern Manchuria, and seeks to take over Liaodong, and China wants to push the Khitan further north and/or west.

Bump, Im being serious, I really need help

Patience. There are only a handful of people on this forum who are able to discuss affairs in detail concerning East Asia during the time period that you specified, and as for the other regions covered, I think you would have to be much more specific in order to receive any substantial responses.

If I were you, I would try to do more research in order to understand more about the regions and time periods you are covering, which covers a substantial amount, then try to ask more specific questions, as general/vague questions will only result in general/vague answers.
 
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Onyx

Banned
I know about the treaty, but you'll have to come up with specifics before asking any further questions. The Khitan can't be weak enough before 1000 for the Song and/or Goryeo to make inroads, but having them expand further south would cause further problems, as they would almost certainly face a two-front war with the Song and Goryeo.

They aren't going to be weak, and they're not going to expand further south since it'll end up nullifying the Chanyuan treaty and begin another war with the Song, and probably lead to there death anyhow.


In terms of Goryeo, it adapted a hostile stance towards the Khitan because it had overrun Balhae, and when the Liao sent 50 camels in order to establish friendly relations, Taejo of Goryeo actually starved them to death. As a result, if the Liao began to show any signs of weakness, it is possible that Goryeo would attempt to push north in order to "restore" former Balhae and Goguryeo territory. IOTL, although Khitan control was strong in Liaodong, it generally left the tribes in southern Manchuria alone, which eventually led the Jurchen to conquer the Khitan after establishing friendly relations with Goryeo.

I just said that the Khitai will absorb the Jurchens....

Anyway, Goryeo temporarily expanded into a very small portion of southeastern Manchuria, and later took control of Liaodong for about a decade or so. That being said, it never managed to retain either area for long. However, expanding into areas north of the Yalu and the Tumen Rivers would require not only soldiers to migrate north and establish fortifications, but also for farmers to head north in order to produce agricultural products for the long run. In other words, although a significant amount of resources would be spent on maintaining a stable force along the border for several decades, the individual areas would eventually become self-sufficient within 50-100 years or so. Also, the expansion would be gradual, not sudden, so starting around 1050 or so, it would probably take about 50-75 years to control significant amounts of eastern Manchuria, then another 50-100 or so to take over Liaodong once the Khitan begin to fall apart. In terms of the population figures, Goryeo probably had around 8-10 million after Balhae refugees streamed in from the north, and only about 1-3 million would be able to gradually establish themselves in the northern regions after about 100-150 years or so.

I agree with scholar, you put too much faith in Goryeo expansion, you said it would be gradual for them to take over Manchuria, and yet if the Khitai maintain themselves, then the Goryeo can't expand north. The only way they can is that the Khitai collapse, and thats not going to happen like I said

Also, the reason for Goryeo's possible ability to conduct these actions is precisely that the Jurchen probably won't be a coherent entity, which would make it very difficult for the Khitan to retain its holdings in Manchuria once it starts disintegrating. There is also no particular reason for Goryeo to not ally with the Song if the former controls portions of southern Manchuria, and seeks to take over Liaodong, and China wants to push the Khitan further north and/or west.

This right here is spot on what you said. The only time this could happen is that the Liao goes probably under a civil conflict, and the Khitai ascend into a new dynasty.

Patience. There are only a handful of people on this forum who are able to discuss affairs in detail concerning East Asia during the time period that you specified, and as for the other regions covered, I think you would have to be much more specific in order to receive any substantial responses.

Not only is it East Asia its going to encompass Europe as well

If I were you, I would try to do more research in order to understand more about the regions and time periods you are covering, which covers a substantial amount, then try to ask more specific questions, as general/vague questions will only result in general/vague answers

Thats what Ive been doing. Ive been reading everything the Liao and the Khitai as well as Song. Im not asking specific questions, Im telling the site my PODs, and ask them to review them.
 
I just said that the Khitai will absorb the Jurchens....

. . . and? You still haven't explained exactly how and/or why the Jurchens will be assimilated/absorbed into the Khitan, or Goryeo, which would be just as equally likely, and my point was that Goryeo would fare better against a larger state, as the Liao would be focused on various matters at once.

I agree with scholar, you put too much faith in Goryeo expansion, you said it would be gradual for them to take over Manchuria, and yet if the Khitai maintain themselves, then the Goryeo can't expand north. The only way they can is that the Khitai collapse, and thats not going to happen like I said

It's one thing to say that something will happen, and quite another to actually explain the specifics behind it. No Central Asian state lasted for longer than two centuries, and while I can see a remote possibility of the Khitan lasting until about 1150 or so, due to cultural assimilation, general military and government-related difficulties, along with the willingness of both the Song and Goryeo to recover "lost" territory, it would be extremely difficult for the Liao to exist after 1150.

Not only is it East Asia its going to encompass Europe as well

Yes, I know, but just presenting the PoD(s) and a few events that took place doesn't really mean anything. If you really want feedback, you have to actually explain what happened for about 50-100 years after the change(s) occurred, so that we can actually assess if your assumptions are reasonable or not.

Thats what Ive been doing. Ive been reading everything the Liao and the Khitai as well as Song. Im not asking specific questions, Im telling the site my PODs, and ask them to review them.

This is the problem. You have to essentially cover every state within Eurasia, which is extremely daunting to carry out. It's much easier to handle the butterflies if you assume OTL for most regions until it becomes ASB to leave things the way they are, rather than having the changes occur thoroughly across all of the regions within a century or so. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I feel that doing the research, which will not only cover the time period that you specified, but also the ones before and after, possibly from 800-1000 and 1500-1700, in order to understand the general situation for each region, will take an extremely long time to research and cover.
 

Onyx

Banned
. . . and? You still haven't explained exactly how and/or why the Jurchens will be assimilated/absorbed into the Khitan, or Goryeo, which would be just as equally likely, and my point was that Goryeo would fare better against a larger state, as the Liao would be focused on various matters at once.

Revolt? Forced assimilation? Failure of Jurchens trying to take over?? There are many ways assimilation can happen, adaption of the dominant culture, etc, The Liao were still powerful at 1000, and it began to decline after Shengzongs death in 1031. The Goryeo were there vassals in tribute and the Song also had t o give tribute. If you can prolong the decline of the Liao, defeat the Jurchens and assimilate them after there defeat and somewhat. Then theres a possible chance that the succeeeding Khitai state can actually live.
And like I said, have the Khitai make a much more suitable and somewhat lesser harsh treaty to the Song can make alot of differences be resolved. Sure the Song dont like the Liao because they usurp there doctrine as the true Central Kingdom, but that could actually help the Khitai live. And to be honest it seems you overestimate the Goryeo too much from what scholar said as well.
Look bottom line, have more peaceful and friendlier relations to the Song, assimilate the Jurchens by defeating them or whatever they had to back then, and you can have the Khitai have the opportunity to live

It's one thing to say that something will happen, and quite another to actually explain the specifics behind it. No Central Asian state lasted for longer than two centuries, and while I can see the Khitan lasting until about 1150 or so, due to cultural assimilation, general military and government-related difficulties, along with the willingness of both the Song and Goryeo to recover "lost" territory, it would be extremely difficult for the Liao to exist after 1150.

They're not Central Asia. They're north of China, and were basically getting assimilated to Chinese culture and were adopting Buddhism, but alot of problems happened between the traditional Khitai who wanted to remain there tradition as original Khitai and the Emperor who was trying stylize the Liao after China.
Second of all, I plan that the Liao get replaced by another Khitai dynasty, not sure whos the contender as of now.

Yes, I know, but just presenting the PoD(s) and a few events that took place doesn't really mean anything. If you really want feedback, you have to actually explain what happened for about 50-100 years after the change(s) occurred, so that we can actually assess if your assumptions are reasonable or not.

If you want me to, Ill just post all the ideas I have right now

This is the problem. You have to essentially cover every state within Eurasia, which is extremely daunting to carry out. It's much easier to handle the butterflies if you assume OTL for most regions until it becomes ASB to leave things the way they are, rather than having the changes occur thoroughly across all of the regions within a century or so. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I feel that doing the research, which will not only cover the time period that you specified, but also the ones before and after, possibly from 800-1000 and 1500-1700, in order to understand the general situation for each region, will take an extremely long time to research and cover.

Pretty much, but whats the exact point of studing AFTER my TL which is 1500-1700 when by that point everything is comepletely different from OTL???
 
Revolt? Forced assimilation? Failure of Jurchens trying to take over?? There are many ways assimilation can happen, adaption of the dominant culture, etc, The Liao were still powerful at 1000, and it began to decline after Shengzongs death in 1031. The Goryeo were there vassals in tribute and the Song also had t o give tribute. If you can prolong the decline of the Liao, defeat the Jurchens and assimilate them after there defeat and somewhat. Then theres a possible chance that the succeeeding Khitai state can actually live.
And like I said, have the Khitai make a much more suitable and somewhat lesser harsh treaty to the Song can make alot of differences be resolved. Sure the Song dont like the Liao because they usurp there doctrine as the true Central Kingdom, but that could actually help the Khitai live. And to be honest it seems you overestimate the Goryeo too much from what scholar said as well.
Look bottom line, have more peaceful and friendlier relations to the Song, assimilate the Jurchens by defeating them or whatever they had to back then, and you can have the Khitai have the opportunity to live

Yes, but my point was that the Jurchens were located between the Liao and Goryeo, and were generally left alone to handle their own affairs. Of course, there are several possibilities for why the region would be assimilated or taken over, but again, you would have to come up with exactly why the Khitan would be willing to spend resources into completely subjugating the Jurchen, instead of leaving them alone as long as they remained loyal, as occurred IOTL. In terms of the Song, you would still have to find a way for peaceful terms to be established between them and the Liao.

Also, my analysis of Goryeo expanding north was based on what actually occurred IOTL, which you don't seem to directly address. Of course, it would certainly be unable to take over all of Manchuria south of the Songhua River, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it could gradually expand north over 100-200 years, given certain conditions. Again, I never specified exactly what areas Goryeo would end up controlling, given that you haven't exactly specified the details for your scenario either.

They're not Central Asia. They're north of China, and were basically getting assimilated to Chinese culture and were adopting Buddhism, but alot of problems happened between the traditional Khitai who wanted to remain there tradition as original Khitai and the Emperor who was trying stylize the Liao after China.
Second of all, I plan that the Liao get replaced by another Khitai dynasty, not sure whos the contender as of now.

According to your logic, Mongolia is certainly not part of Central Asia, which is extremely strange. The problem with your reasoning is that the areas that the Khitan ruled were never really considered part of East Asia, and the Mongols were culturally successors of the Khitan, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue.

Also, the succession struggle itself would motivate the Song and Goryeo to attack simultaneously from two fronts, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

If you want me to, Ill just post all the ideas I have right now

Well, I won't be able to respond to everything, as I probably won't be able to discuss other regions, but feel free to present what you have so others can give feedback.

Pretty much, but whats the exact point of studing AFTER my TL which is 1500-1700 when by that point everything is comepletely different from OTL???

Unless you're thinking of creating a fantasy world that is completely unrecognizable from OTL, then I'm pretty sure that there will be similarities between the two worlds.
 

Onyx

Banned
Yes, but my point was that the Jurchens were located between the Liao and Goryeo, and were generally left alone to handle their own affairs. Of course, there are several possibilities for why the region would be assimilated or taken over, but again, you would have to come up with exactly why the Khitan would be willing to spend resources into completely subjugating the Jurchen, instead of leaving them alone as long as they remained loyal, as occurred IOTL. In terms of the Song, you would still have to find a way for peaceful terms to be established between them and the Liao.

Possibly through a stalemate in the war with the Song. Second of all, maybe the Khitai want to prevent the Goryeo from encroaching influence across the Yalu. Either way, by this or the Jurchens are defeated, is a reason I guess?

Also, my analysis of Goryeo expanding north was based on what actually occurred IOTL, which you don't seem to directly address. Of course, it would certainly be unable to take over all of Manchuria south of the Songhua River, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it could gradually expand north over 100-200 years, given certain conditions. Again, I never specified exactly what areas Goryeo would end up controlling, given that you haven't exactly specified the details for your scenario either.

Yes I understand what you mean, I dont know much about Korean history, so maybe if I can try and learn more I'll figure out

According to your logic, Mongolia is certainly not part of Central Asia, which is extremely strange. The problem with your reasoning is that the areas that the Khitan ruled were never really considered part of East Asia, and the Mongols were culturally successors of the Khitan, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue.

Central Asia.....
All maps Ive seen say the same thing.

200px-Central_Asia_(orthographic_projection).svg.png


Also, the succession struggle itself would motivate the Song and Goryeo to attack simultaneously from two fronts, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

How to prevent the Khitai from collapsing??? Look its not solid evidence, but thats what Im trying to figure out, yes the Song and Goryeo want to take back Khitai territory, but HOW they will fail is the question. Maybe the Khitai manage to pull off a Kwiju (You must know that battle)

Unless you're thinking of creating a fantasy world that is completely unrecognizable from OTL, then I'm pretty sure that there will be similarities between the two worlds.

Its not fantasy, its a different alternate world, like the other AH TLs on this site.....
 
How about this. Place an actual physical outline, you know

1979- The city of Memphis, Tennessee is taken by a powerful warlord known only as the King.

1980- The mean sounds of rock & roll emanating from the city of the King, sent a chill down the spine of every honey this side of the Mississippi.

etcetera, and then post it on the thread, so that we can make a real critique of what you've got. Otherwise I can't help you. Because Im all for showing whats wrong with the puzzle, but I do not feel like putting one together.
 

Onyx

Banned
How about this. Place an actual physical outline, you know



etcetera, and then post it on the thread, so that we can make a real critique of what you've got. Otherwise I can't help you. Because Im all for showing whats wrong with the puzzle, but I do not feel like putting one together.

Yeah thats a good idea, been thinking of doing that, I will do it, thnx
 
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