WI: USSR artificially improves its living conditions to become a "USA of the East"

It was a widely known fact even during the Cold War, that the East Block satellite states of the Soviet Union, especially East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Hungary were better off than the USSR itself.


While most Western Europeans, especially in the 50s and 60s were jealous of not being Americans, most people from East Block nations were glad that they weren't Soviets.


What if the Soviet Union, when it sees the post-WW2 boom of Western Europe and the USA, decides to start improving its living conditions radically on the expense of East Block semi-prosperity and getting indebted, to result in a country on which East Block people look as a role model and a place to go to as a guest worker or even an immigrant?

Where would the loans come from?

You are asking the Soviets to eschew one of Socialism's central tenets: which is development in order to increase consumption. Basically a more extreme version of Goulash Communism.

Yeah, I propose a scenario in which the Soviet Union makes a system similar to OTL Hungarian "Goulash Communism", but they provide less aid to East Block satellite states, so living conditions in those countries would become more like OTL USSR was.

....What? I'm pretty sure its not a widely known fact....or a fact, none the less.

The standard of living in the USSR was fairly above that of its Eastern European clients, if I recall correctly.

The Hungarian "Goulash communism" and the illusion of the "happiest barrack" was built upon Western credit. If you can present us a credible scenario in which the USA sends poorly enforceable long-term loans to the USSR to help its economy... I must congratulate you.

Red Cesar said:

....What? I'm pretty sure its not a widely known fact....or a fact, none the less.

The standard of living in the USSR was fairly above that of its Eastern European clients, if I recall correctly.

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I don't know if it was a widely known fact, it was certainly a widely-held perception. Outside a few capital cities in USSR, it was understood that the rest of the Socialist Camp was better off than we were.

RGB said:

I don't know if it was a widely known fact, it was certainly a widely-held perception. Outside a few capital cities in USSR, it was understood that the rest of the Socialist Camp was better off than we were.

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Wasn't that something Gorbachev came back to over and over, cutting expenses by reducing the Red Army forces in Eastern Europe, and making those countries pay realistic prices for the raw materials they imported from the Soviet Union, rather than 'fraternal socialist discount rate,' or whatever they called it?

Well, I'd assume the collection of Russia's population still thriving off agriculture and the collectives farms would be less well off, but I believe the Urban proletarian was significantly better off then their Eastern European counterparts.

Georgepatton said:

Wasn't that something Gorbachev came back to over and over, cutting expenses by reducing the Red Army forces in Eastern Europe, and making those countries pay realistic prices for the raw materials they imported from the Soviet Union, rather than 'fraternal socialist discount rate,' or whatever they called it?

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Well, Germany got natural gas in return for building the pipes to deliver this natural gas.

But then again perception is a weird thing. Russians from industrial cities were often pretty resentful of the Caucasian republics, for example, who were seen to live in a better climate and better conditions and still get everything at the same price/for free/whatever.

The cow feeds in Siberia and gets milked in Tbilisi, kind of thing.

Of course I remember what rural Georgia was like in the late 80s/early 90s, and other than the whole minimal-snow it wasn't any better than Siberia was.

Alex99232 said:

What if the Soviet Union, when it sees the post-WW2 boom of Western Europe and the USA, decides to start improving its living conditions radically on the expense of East Block semi-prosperity and getting indebted, to result in a country on which East Block people look as a role model and a place to go to as a guest worker or even an immigrant?

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I share your impression that at least some of the USSR's satellite's had a higher standard of living than the USSR itself. I think this must have been true especially true of East Germany and Czechoslovakia (probably more true of the Czech part). Both countries had been highly industrialized before they were conquered by the Red Army and might have kept some of their pre-1945 assets. East Germany also received loans and private help from West Germany.

But even in OTL there was a widespread perception that the USSR was exploiting, not helping its satellites. I cannot say whether this perception was true or false, although of course East Germany did have to make large reparations to the USSR.

There are two unrealistic parts in your challenge:
1. I think there is absolutely no way for a country with a big, poor population (like the USSR) to syphon off enough wealth from countries whose populations added together are smaller than that of the USSR, and which are not rich, either, to become a "USA of the East". There is only so much you can take from a country without starting to impair this country's abilities to create more goods, or in more extreme cases, even the population's ability to continue living.

2. It is also absolutely impossible that a USSR that massively plunders its satellites is looked upon "as a role model" as you write. People from Eastern Europe just might consider going there as cheap labor, but there is every likelihood that they will be continued to be exploited there, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

Alex99232 said:

Yeah, I propose a scenario in which the Soviet Union makes a system similar to OTL Hungarian "Goulash Communism", but they provide less aid to East Block satellite states, so living conditions in those countries would become more like OTL USSR was.

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What aid? You mean like free Uranium from Czechoslovakia? Selling them old weapons system for high prices, etc? Set value of ruble to their currency so Soviets was importing cheaply?

KACKO said:

What aid? You mean like free Uranium from Czechoslovakia? Selling them old weapons system for high prices, etc? Set value of ruble to their currency so Soviets was importing cheaply?

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I mean that in OTL, the Soviet Union bought large amounts of poorly-made products from it's satellite states ranging from industrial machinery to foodstuffs for many times of its value as a form of "brotherly aid". This is the cause of widespread Eastern European unemployment nowadays. The former East Block factories are still set to produce 1960s-quality goods with minimal labour, but in today's capitalist climate, no one buys these stuffs and there is not enough money to build modern factories.


However in this ATL, the Soviet Union never starts this "brotherly aid" in the first place and as a result it has more money to introduce "Goulash Communism"-like conditions within its borders, while the satellite states are left to fend for themselves more heavily.

Red Cesar said:

....What? I'm pretty sure its not a widely known fact....or a fact, none the less.

The standard of living in the USSR was fairly above that of its Eastern European clients, if I recall correctly.

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Mainly in the places that they brought the touring Westerners.

No, I'm talking about The unions industrial and urban centers.


You have to remember, East Germany was not a bastion of "industrialization" or progress, the Soviets had dismantled almost all East German industry after the initial occupation, as part of the reparation plan.

Red Cesar said:

The standard of living in the USSR was fairly above that of its Eastern European clients, if I recall correctly.

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I don't think this is true. East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary were definitely above the Soviet Union. Poland was around the same. Romania and Bulgaria were worse, although in Romania's case it had to do with the insane way Ceaucescu spent oil revenue and ran the country. East Germany was clearly seen to be the most advanced of the Eastern Bloc, and Czechoslovakia was not far behind.

Since the economic numbers under Communism are not very reliable, we don't have easy statistical comparisons. But comparison of which countries had the more value-added industries, or the least amount of shortages all point to East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary having a higher standard of living. Hungary had less industry and heavy manufacturing, but had consumer goods and was known to have the least shortages of any Eastern Bloc nation. Tourists from other Communist countries always stocked up supplies when visiting there.

Alex99232 said:

I mean that in OTL, the Soviet Union bought large amounts of poorly-made products from it's satellite states ranging from industrial machinery to foodstuffs for many times of its value as a form of "brotherly aid".

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They did buy these things, but the quality was not worse than that of Soviet-made goods. The Soviets had neither the ability to produce something better, nor the money to buy the equivalent Western goods, so buying stuff from its satellite states was not at all an unselfish decision. What makes you think that the Soviets paid "many times of its values"? Who told you that? It sounds rather incredible, given the fact that the Soviet system was based on coercion and that the satellite states' remaining socialist could be and was enforced with tanks. There was no need for "brotherly aid." May be there was some brotherly aid for Cuba or Vietnam, which could not be invaded with tanks and whose loyalty had to be bought somehow.

Alex99232 said:

This is the cause of widespread Eastern European unemployment nowadays. The former East Block factories are still set to produce 1960s-quality goods with minimal labour, but in today's capitalist climate, no one buys these stuffs and there is not enough money to build modern factories.

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Are you really writing from 2012? I think I did see quite a number of Skoda cars here in Germany and Eastern Europe does not consist of Albania only. Eastern Europe is less wealthy than Western Europe, but it did massively modernize its industry and adapt its economy to market mechanisms.

Alex99232 said:

However in this ATL, the Soviet Union never starts this "brotherly aid" in the first place and as a result it has more money to introduce "Goulash Communism"-like conditions within its borders, while the satellite states are left to fend for themselves more heavily.

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If this aid existed at all (I have my doubts as far as Eastern Europe is concerned) its absence cannot possibly have made the USSR rich.

The populations of Eastern European satellite countries combined are smaller than that of the USSR. If the amount of aid given to the satellite states had been so large as to make the USSR rich (as you seem to think), then it must have made the satellite states not only rich in OTL (which they were not) but phantastically rich in OTL, since the same amount of money that would have made the USSR rich, would be divided among a much smaller population. Since the satellite states were not phantastically rich in OTL, at most only less poor than the USSR, keeping the "brotherly aid" (which is probably imaginary anyway) could not possibly make the USSR rich.

Well, his exact example may not be true, or it may, I don't really have the time to confirm it, but the USSR did in fact aid their Eastern European client states to a large degree.

Eastern Europe was the USSR's first defense against the west, they weren't about to let that defense get steam rolled.

AMF said:

Are you really writing from 2012? I think I did see quite a number of Skoda cars here in Germany and Eastern Europe does not consist of Albania only. Eastern Europe is less wealthy than Western Europe, but it did massively modernize its industry and adapt its economy to market mechanisms.

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This might be true of the former East Germany, the Czech part of Czechoslovakia, and Poland, but here in Hungary, the situation is closer to what you describe as "Albania."


Every day when I go to work by train, I go past at least 5 abandoned factories and industrial yards, that look like something out of Pripyat, Ukraine, and this is not some isolated place far from the major cities, but Csepel, southern Budapest the place that was the industrial powerhouse of Communist Hungary.


In Romania, I saw conditions that were no better and in Bulgaria, store shelves were so empty that I felt like I went back in time to early 1990s Hungary. And again this was not some isolated place, but Burgas, the famous resort city on the Black Sea coast.

Alex99232 said:

I mean that in OTL, the Soviet Union bought large amounts of poorly-made products from it's satellite states ranging from industrial machinery to foodstuffs for many times of its value as a form of "brotherly aid". This is the cause of widespread Eastern European unemployment nowadays. The former East Block factories are still set to produce 1960s-quality goods with minimal labour, but in today's capitalist climate, no one buys these stuffs and there is not enough money to build modern factories.


However in this ATL, the Soviet Union never starts this "brotherly aid" in the first place and as a result it has more money to introduce "Goulash Communism"-like conditions within its borders, while the satellite states are left to fend for themselves more heavily.

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Well they bought it because their products was even worst, or they lack them at all. As to quality manufactured now, or. At the time in Eastern Europe. Well, food quality went generally down now. Home manufactured or imported. Most of the stuff for regular people at West and East is made in China and is usually barely holding behind its warranty day. i
But yes, at the time, in 60 ties quality of western products started to rise.

So again, so called brotherly aid is crap. Whatever they bought they bought it because they needed it and paid for it with ruble, which had set value. And you would be surprised, by Soviets actually asked high quality. What didn't pass, stayed for home use.

Georgepatton said:

...making {eastern European} countries pay realistic prices for the raw materials they imported from the Soviet Union, rather than 'fraternal socialist discount rate,' or whatever they called it?

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What 'fraternal socialist discount rate'?

The USSR charged full price for its exports to its satellites. The price of Soviet oil was the OPEC rate.

The reason Eastern Europe was better off than the USSR was that it was more developed to begin with. Its population was more educated and skilled, and it had more industry (relative to population).