Nubia: Alternate History

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 3, 2012

Would a state around the area of Nubia be plausible (before 1900)?
I mean the region in the very north of Sudan and in the very south of Egypt.
For further information, see this link and this one too.

Furthermore, does anyone have map suggestions for potential Nubia, as a country?
I was thinking about something like this:

Herzen's love-child · Nov 3, 2012

It had a strong regional identity and there was was a distinct kingdom there until the 14th Century. Find some way to suppress internal dissent and hold off the Egyptian incursions that eventually destroyed it and perhaps you get a state that morphs into a very different (and independent) Sudan before the modern era. Maintaining a christian identity may help.

A healthy Makuria is your best hope:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makuria

othyrsyde · Nov 3, 2012

OMG an African TL

!!!

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 5, 2012

othyrsyde said:
OMG an African TL!!!

Yeah, they are rare, aren't they?

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 5, 2012

Herzen's love-child said:
It had a strong regional identity and there was was a distinct kingdom there until the 14th Century. Find some way to suppress internal dissent and hold off the Egyptian incursions that eventually destroyed it and perhaps you get a state that morphs into a very different (and independent) Sudan before the modern era. Maintaining a christian identity may help.

A healthy Makuria is your best hope:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makuria

THANKS!!!
I also found this map, which indicates Makuria:
(It's a cool map anyways.)

el t · Nov 5, 2012

Nubia

Had the Crusaders conquered Egypt, then there would have been diplomatic, cultural, religious, and economic contact between Nubia and whatever type of state that the Crusaders would have set up in Egypt. Perhaps this would have led to the Nubians eventually becoming a Roman Catholic kingdom..

yourworstnightmare · Nov 5, 2012

Alodia survived a little longer than Makuria though, but Makuria was the stronger one. Also, we barely know anything about Alodia, while quite alot about Makuria.

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 5, 2012

el t said:
Had the Crusaders conquered Egypt, then there would have been diplomatic, cultural, religious, and economic contact between Nubia and whatever type of state that the Crusaders would have set up in Egypt. Perhaps this would have led to the Nubians eventually becoming a Roman Catholic kingdom..

Thanks, that's quite a good idea!

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 5, 2012

yourworstnightmare said:
Alodia survived a little longer than Makuria though, but Makuria was the stronger one. Also, we barely know anything about Alodia, while quite alot about Makuria.

Yeah, I looked it up and indeed Alodia isn't well-known... But good that you mention it.

Besides, I found this map:

Elfwine · Nov 5, 2012

TheseusDeuteros said:
Thanks, that's quite a good idea!

The challenge of course is a successful conquest and then lasting presence in Egypt.

I don't think it's impossible, but I'm not sure how to make it work, either. There are a lot of Egyptians to hold down.

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 5, 2012

Elfwine said:
The challenge of course is a successful conquest and then lasting presence in Egypt.

I don't think it's impossible, but I'm not sure how to make it work, either. There are a lot of Egyptians to hold down.

Don't be afriad, it's of course possible! Use logic and fanatsy... and it'll work.

Elfwine · Nov 5, 2012

TheseusDeuteros said:
Don't be afriad, it's of course possible! Use logic and fanatsy... and it'll work.

I have a problem with "fantasy" being used to aid one of my most unfavorite groups in before 1900 history. Bad enough to use it at all, but to use it for the crusaders of all people . . .

B_Munro · Nov 5, 2012

If we have some sort of dynastic union with the Axumites, that gives them a sea coast more accessible than the Sudanese one, and in turn the added manpower and resources might save Axum from being sealed off into the African interior by Islam as OTL...

Bruce

Herzen's love-child · Nov 5, 2012

B_Munro said:
If we have some sort of dynastic union with the Axumites, that gives them a sea coast more accessible than the Sudanese one, and in turn the added manpower and resources might save Axum from being sealed off into the African interior by Islam as OTL...

Bruce

Remember that Axum goes into decline by the 7th Century A.D. The Christian states of Nubia existed because of Axum's expansion centuries prior. I think there was exchange between Nubia and Axum while it could last. Factors to consider: climate change and overfarming.

Hamurabi · Nov 6, 2012

didnt this happen OTL..
nubians like taharka took over egypt and fought the assyrians, even attempted to expand in the levant.

Herzen's love-child · Nov 6, 2012

Hamurabi said:
didnt this happen OTL..
nubians like taharka took over egypt and fought the assyrians, even attempted to expand in the levant.

About a 1000 years or so earlier, yes. The 25th (Nubian) Dynasty

Brady Kj · Nov 6, 2012

Is it necessary for the crusaders to conquer Egypt? Couldn't they just weaken Egypt so it's unable to conquer Nubia?

yourworstnightmare · Nov 6, 2012

el t said:
Had the Crusaders conquered Egypt, then there would have been diplomatic, cultural, religious, and economic contact between Nubia and whatever type of state that the Crusaders would have set up in Egypt. Perhaps this would have led to the Nubians eventually becoming a Roman Catholic kingdom..

Or the crusaders might have attacked the Nubians since they were not "real Christians".

TheseusDeuteros · Nov 6, 2012

Elfwine said:
I have a problem with "fantasy" being used to aid one of my most unfavorite groups in before 1900 history. Bad enough to use it at all, but to use it for the crusaders of all people . . .

Yeah, I don't like the crusaders either, but anyway...

B_Munro said:
If we have some sort of dynastic union with the Axumites, that gives them a sea coast more accessible than the Sudanese one, and in turn the added manpower and resources might save Axum from being sealed off into the African interior by Islam as OTL...

Bruce

Good idea!

Herzen's love-child said:
Remember that Axum goes into decline by the 7th Century A.D. The Christian states of Nubia existed because of Axum's expansion centuries prior. I think there was exchange between Nubia and Axum while it could last. Factors to consider: climate change and overfarming.

Indeed... Thanks!

Hamurabi said:
didnt this happen OTL..
nubians like taharka took over egypt and fought the assyrians, even attempted to expand in the levant.

Herzen's love-child said:
About a 1000 years or so earlier, yes. The 25th (Nubian) Dynasty

Ah, I'll look that up too, but I have to go to school in a few minutes.

Brady Kj said:
Is it necessary for the crusaders to conquer Egypt? Couldn't they just weaken Egypt so it's unable to conquer Nubia?

That's perhaps indeed a good or even better idea.

yourworstnightmare said:
Or the crusaders might have attacked the Nubians since they were not "real Christians".

Well, but then they weaken the Nubians, which makes the existence of a Nubian state less likely because they have less power due to being attacked by the crusaders. Thus, these poor Nubians then might well be conquered by the Egyptians or Sudanese again.

yourworstnightmare · Nov 6, 2012

Well, Makuria was strongest when the friendly Fatimids ruled Egypt, mostly due to flourishing trade between them. So a friend in Egypt probably will always rely on how much the Egyptians benefit from Nubian trade. The Funj arriving on the scene however, that can be harder to avert.