Cultural WI: Fantasy genre not based on Norse mythology?

IOTL, the archetypical fantasy setting is largely based on Norse mythology, thanks to the influence of J. R. R. Tolkien and those inspired by him. Thus we have:
- Elves, who are beautiful, in tune with nature, long-lived, of human height, etcetera. (Inspired by ljósálfar.)
- Dwarves, who live underground, work metals, dislike elves, are shorter than humans, etcetera. (Inspired by dvergar.)
- Wizards with broad-brimmed hats, staffs and long beards. (Inspired by Óðinn as the Wanderer.)
- Undead, the animated bodies of the dead (Inspired by draugar, although there are of course many kinds of myths about the undead around the world.)
- Dragons, although like the undead they are of course not unique to Norse mythology.

You can probably think of more examples yourself. Fantasy wouldn't be what it is today if Tolkien hadn't been taken many ideas from Norse mythology.

But what if the father or mother of the modern fantasy genre had instead been inspired by some other mythology? Some examples:
-Celtic mythology
-Greek mythology
-Slavic mythology
-Christian mythology
-Hindu mythology
-Islamic mythology
-Chinese mythology

And so on and so forth. Could you describe how you envision the stereotypical fantasy setting in such a world? What would make fans of the genre roll their eyes and say things like "Elves don't like dwarves? Oh please, that's so clichéd!"

Is there even enough of Slavic pagan mythology preserved to do this? I never studied it, but cursory research I did years ago made it seem like what is left to history is very incomplete and fragmentary compared to the Norse or Greco-Roman myths.

I think you're overstating how much Norse Mythology is in fantasy.

The Witcher is far more grounded in Slavic mythology. Narnia is more based in Celtic and Greek mythology. Thomas Covenant is Celtic based. Joe Abercrombie, George RR Martin and a lot of others just base thiers off of history.

There is plenty of other fantasy styles and influences. The reason there is so much Norse though is because a lot of authors cribbed notes from Tolkien. Most of the better ones do not however.

JRR Tolkien

JRR Tolkien reacted to the death of liberalism and rise of nationalism in WWI, the seduction of power as nations industrialized and became powerful enough to annoy and oppress their neighbors on a completely unprecedented scale.
For him, Norse mythology worked best with the whole theme of Gotterdammerung reflecting his fears and experiences.

IMO Western fantasy liked to channel the pagan mythos to see what Christianity felt was so worthy of suppression in the Celtic, Greek, and Slavic mythos.
Islamic mythos crept in with djinn and efreet, but haven't really had much impact on fantasy beyond those concepts.
We haven't discussed the Jewish myths (golem and dybbuks frex) and other spooks and monsters in their mythos, but they've beciome part of the fantasy world too.

As to other mythos getting their day in the sun in fantasy- MANY fantasy authors work with other mythos.
In Anglo nations, Celtic mythos tend to get a lot of play- the Sidhe are a rather fascinating animistic way of anthropomorphizing nature.

Roger Zelazny went out of his way to channel Buddhist and Indian mythos n his novels Lord of Light, Doorways in the Sand, and Amber series.
Jim Butcher's Dresden series is a fantasy kitchen sink with Christian, Celtic and Native American mythos but many others are in play as well.
I'm sure AH fantasy fans could come up with dozens of other examples of folks channeling different mythos than the Norse.

I for one would like to see more Balto-Finnic myths included to fantasy literature in general - although Tolkien borrowed a great deal from Kalevala already, with wizards flying around with eagles and talking to animals, Turin Turambar as a version of Kullervo and high elves speaking a language structurally similar to Finnish.

Then again the mindset of the old rune-singing poems is all too easily lost in translation due the peculiarities of the language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Word_order
http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~fkarlsso/genkau2.html

A young soldier JRR Tolkien is shot at the Battle of the Somme.
In the 1930. J R Smith returns from China. He begin to write a three book fantasy epic that uses Chinese Mythology as the basis for his books.

In the 1960's as the Books become cult classics, Other writers use Chinese and Indian Mythology as basis for their fantasy novel backgrounds.

M. Adolphe Thiers said:

Is there even enough of Slavic pagan mythology preserved to do this? I never studied it, but cursory research I did years ago made it seem like what is left to history is very incomplete and fragmentary compared to the Norse or Greco-Roman myths.

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Nothing authentically old the way the Norse stuff is (10-12th c.) or the antiquity, but plenty of epic material starting in the 16th c.

Though of course the main reason is that Tolkien used the closest-related mythology for his own Anglo-Myth creation, which he himself pointed out.

Communist nations conquer Europe to the Channel.

Slavic myths and legends are in vogue.

USSR collapses, but leaves a cultural legacy.

Fantasy becomes popular.

Boom.

M. Adolphe Thiers said:

Is there even enough of Slavic pagan mythology preserved to do this? I never studied it, but cursory research I did years ago made it seem like what is left to history is very incomplete and fragmentary compared to the Norse or Greco-Roman myths.

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Interestingly, Greco-Roman myths seem to have relatively little influence on the modern fantasy genre, despite ancient Greece and Rome having a more direct, wide-reaching influence on Western culture than Viking Age Scandinavia.

thekingsguard said:

I think you're overstating how much Norse Mythology is in fantasy.

The Witcher is far more grounded in Slavic mythology. Narnia is more based in Celtic and Greek mythology. Thomas Covenant is Celtic based. Joe Abercrombie, George RR Martin and a lot of others just base thiers off of history.

There is plenty of other fantasy styles and influences. The reason there is so much Norse though is because a lot of authors cribbed notes from Tolkien. Most of the better ones do not however.

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Sure, there are many fantasy authors who find inspiration in other mythologies. What I meant was the Standard Fantasy Setting. What would be the "standard races"? How would magic-users look? What monsters would appear? What would the average protagonist be like? Etcetera.

Alkahest said:

Interestingly, Greco-Roman myths seem to have relatively little influence on the modern fantasy genre, despite ancient Greece and Rome having a more direct, wide-reaching influence on Western culture than Viking Age Scandinavia.

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I'm not surprised to be honest. Norse mythology is less embedded in the popular consciousness, so it's a lot more exotic than say, Theseus and the Minotaur and the like. Having that appear in fantasy would be boring, than the idea of gnomes and elves.

M. Adolphe Thiers said:

I'm not surprised to be honest. Norse mythology is less embedded in the popular consciousness, so it's a lot more exotic than say, Theseus and the Minotaur and the like. Having that appear in fantasy would be boring, than the idea of gnomes and elves.

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They were quite popular in the 1950s (e.g. Jason and the argonauts), but an overabundance of sword-and-sandal films of questionable quality lead to an oversaturation among the audiance and the demise of those plots by the mid 1960s. There was a short-lived revival in the 1980s, but it didn't really catch on.

Not that hard. Have Nazi and western anti-Nazi propaganda take a different tack more emphasising the whole neo-Norse paganism idea espoused by Himmler so it enters the popular consciousness, and thus Norse mythology becomes uncomfortably tainted by association with Nazism and not considered a suitable subject, at least for a while.

VictorLaszlo said:

They were quite popular in the 1950s (e.g. Jason and the argonauts), but an overabundance of sword-and-sandal films of questionable quality lead to an oversaturation among the audiance and the demise of those plots by the mid 1960s. There was a short-lived revival in the 1980s, but it didn't really catch on.

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Sinbad and what not?

RGB said:

Nothing authentically old the way the Norse stuff is (10-12th c.) or the antiquity, but plenty of epic material starting in the 16th c.

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Do you have any recommendations as to where to start reading up on the subject? I'm very curious to know more about Pre-Christian Slavic beliefs and myths.

TxCoatl1970 said:

We haven't discussed the Jewish myths (golem and dybbuks frex) and other spooks and monsters in their mythos, but they've beciome part of the fantasy world too.

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That's more or less the extent of actually Jewish, but non-biblical/kabbalistic, mythology really, with the Aggadah added in. Everything else is just an adaptation of other local tales.

Well, there's some stories of Rabbis being able to do things, but they're more anecdotes then actual tales.

Thande said:

Not that hard. Have Nazi and western anti-Nazi propaganda take a different tack more emphasising the whole neo-Norse paganism idea espoused by Himmler so it enters the popular consciousness, and thus Norse mythology becomes uncomfortably tainted by association with Nazism and not considered a suitable subject, at least for a while.

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Wagner was tainted in some quarters after the War by both his anti-semitism and his works adoption by the Nazi establishment. I think Tolkien was perhaps a little lucky that the more convoluted Wagner/Germanic/Norse connections didn't sully his works reception.

I could see as an alternative to Tolkien's Norse influence, a Celtic mythological influence in English fantasy works. It certainly was mined by earlier writers of the British Isles.

M. Adolphe Thiers said:

Do you have any recommendations as to where to start reading up on the subject? I'm very curious to know more about Pre-Christian Slavic beliefs and myths.

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Well.

If you want Russian, you read the Lay of Igors Campaign, then proceed to collections of fairy tales, epic lays and folk songs. PM me some time to find you some English translations on the internet.

If you want Balkan, there are various things mostly involving Marko Kraljevic.

There are no coherent narratives involving gods and goddesses but there is enough to create a distinct setting.

I think if there is no single individual who dramatically shapes the genre, fantasy stories would be like the folk stories and fairy tales told in England in the 1800s - 1900s. So elves and dragons would still be present, but dwarves not so much. And fairies and giants would be much more prevalent.

Of course, if you allow for someone to come onto the scene and be as influential as Tolkien was, fantasy could have gone in a number of different directions. Egyptian myth would be a fun and plausible alternative.

RGB said:

There are no coherent narratives involving gods and goddesses but there is enough to create a distinct setting.

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A mythology that contain a witch who moves around in a mortar and that has a house on chicken legs will do that.