AHC: Chinese conquest of Mexico

[Zuvarq]

Only other requirement is that Mexico is held by the Spanish at least to 1580.

Bonus points if Mexico becomes ruled by the Qing Dynasty.

[Malta Shah]

Border dispute between New Spain and the Golden Gate turns into a war along the Colorado River in 1689. The Spanish in Venezuela invade the Inca Empire, a puppet of the Golden Gate, but are fortunately repulsed. Eventually the Jing Clan breaks the stalemate by invading Acapulco by sea followed by a swift conquest of Mexico City.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by King of Malta

Border dispute between New Spain and the Golden Gate turns into a war along the Colorado River in 1689. The Spanish in Venezuela invade the Inca Empire, a puppet of the Golden Gate, but are fortunately repulsed. Eventually the Jing Clan breaks the stalemate by invading Acapulco by sea followed by a swift conquest of Mexico City.

This is a joke, right? I said the Spanish have to rule Mexico to 1580 because another power could take it, not because I expect the Chinese to be able to do so that early.

[Malta Shah]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

This is a joke, right? I said the Spanish have to rule Mexico to 1580 because another power could take it, not because I expect the Chinese to be able to do so that early.

Mostly. Though I think in my TL they could.

[lordapocalipsis]

i think both TL could work

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

This is a joke, right?

This whole thread is a joke, right? Because otherwise it belongs in the ASB section.

EDIT: I mean, really, getting the Chinese to continue the treasure fleets throughout the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea is one thing, and evolving from there into some sort of colonialism along the lines of what China had already been doing in Central and South East Asia for centuries, or like the OTL European states, is another thing, but honestly, getting them to cross the Pacific ocean and not only go on about conquering far-flung empires, which isn't the Chinese MO at all, but not only that conquering said empire from the Spanish, and even more far-flung 'barbarian' empire, is just ridiculous. You'd need such a massive change in Chinese and world history that its essentially fantasy.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by wolf_brother

This whole thread is a joke, right? Because otherwise it belongs in the ASB section.

The POD can be as far back as the Qin Dynasty. Hell, Jin or Chen could even win out among the other states, because their names could also morph into China.

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

The POD can be as far back as the Qin Dynasty. Hell, Jin or Chen could even win out among the other states, because their names could also morph into China.

With a POD so far back you can do just about whatever you want at that point, because you have enough time to play out the butterflies in all manner of ways, but the world will be so alien compared to OTL that OTL readers wouldn't be able to relate to it at all. I mean, you might as well write fantasy novels at that point instead of alternate history ones.

EDIT: It'd be like me asking 'WI the Romans sent a man to Alpha Centauri', or 'WI Oxus had become the Cradle of (Western Eurasian) Civilization instead of Mesopotamia.' Yeah you could do a TL involving those things, but again they'd be so different that no matter how realistic you made it it would still seem fantastical to any OTL reader because there wouldn't be anything we could relate to due to the massive differences resulting from century upon century of butterflies.

[Zuvarq]

I said conquer, not directly integrate. It could be made a vassal state and be considered conquered, as long as a Chinese upper class goes there.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

I said conquer, not directly integrate. It could be made a vassal state and be considered conquered, as long as a Chinese upper class goes there.

But a Chinese upper class doesn't go there, if it's a vassal. Vassals have their own leadership, and send swag to show they consider the Chinese emperor the supreme mac daddy.

Bruce

[Color-Copycat]

How about a Chinese-Mexican equivalent of Fujimori in the 20th century?

Failing that, maybe stricter anti-Chinese legislation in California causes the local immigrant population to uproot and relocate in northern Mexico. They set up their own independently governed enclave during the chaos of the Mexican Civil War and somehow manage to end up heading a victorious coalition?

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

But a Chinese upper class doesn't go there, if it's a vassal. Vassals have their own leadership, and send swag to show they consider the Chinese emperor the supreme mac daddy.

Bruce

Chinese traders, merchants, and some higher or lower classes, would go there to become the upper class of the vassal state.

[Color-Copycat]

In SE Asia, didn't Chinese immigrants usually keep themselves separate from the local aristocracy and gentry? I know the merchant class tended to hide themselves away in their ethnic enclaves in the big cities, but I can't remember for the life of me what the scholar gentry did (if they did go overseas at all).

Also, the merchants probably wouldn't be forming any sort of social elite. They were looked down upon for handling money the same way Jews were in medieval Europe.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

In SE Asia, didn't Chinese immigrants usually keep themselves separate from the local aristocracy and gentry? I know the merchant class tended to hide themselves away in their ethnic enclaves in the big cities, but I can't remember for the life of me what the scholar gentry did (if they did go overseas at all).

Well this would probably be a partially westernized China, so the settlement of vassalized Mexico would not go the same as the trickling of Chinese merchants into SE Asia and the Philippines that happened in the past several hundred years.

But in any case, this would be a vassal state, not just a friendly state. The settlers would be encouraged to go there instead of, for the most part, going there to make a profit.

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

Also, the merchants probably wouldn't be forming any sort of social elite. They were looked down upon for handling money the same way Jews were in medieval Europe.

True but they wouldn't be the only settlers.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Chinese traders, merchants, and some higher or lower classes, would go there to become the upper class of the vassal state.

How are they becoming the upper class of the vassal state, pray tell?

A vassal state is a state ruled - internally - by its own, it's just that, as B_Munro put it - it sends swag to the big mac daddy.

[Color-Copycat]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Well this would probably be a partially westernized China, so the settlement of vassalized Mexico would not go the same as the trickling of Chinese merchants into SE Asia and the Philippines that happened in the past several hundred years.

But in any case, this would be a vassal state, not just a friendly state. The settlers would be encouraged to go there instead of, for the most part, going there to make a profit.

True but they wouldn't be the only settlers.

What do you mean by a "partially westernized China"? Like Meiji Restoration-style Westernization?

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

How are they becoming the upper class of the vassal state, pray tell?

Well, not all of them would become the upper class. Merchants would be lowish on the social ladder, while Chinese Mexico would probably invite Chinese to farm in the sparsely populated north.

But in any case, the soldiers who conquer Mexico from Spain or whoever conquers it afterward will probably become the leaders of the country. Or, the Whatever Dynasty will send an envoy of nobles after the conquest.

Having criollos, mestizos, or indios rule Chinese Mexico would be unreliable.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

A vassal state is a state ruled - internally - by its own, it's just that, as B_Munro put it - it sends swag to the big mac daddy.

But also obeys their liege's demands.

Perhaps a viceroyalty would be a better word for what I meant originally.

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

What do you mean by a "partially westernized China"? Like Meiji Restoration-style Westernization?

Yeah, basically that.

[Color-Copycat]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Yeah, basically that.

Oh, boy, that's a whole 'nother AH discussion thread right there.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

Oh, boy, that's a whole 'nother AH discussion thread right there.

Indeed, since China is very unlikely to see any reason to westernize until the 19th century...

Fascist China joins forces with Nazi Germany to invade North America circa 1955?

Bruce

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Well, not all of them would become the upper class. Merchants would be lowish on the social ladder, while Chinese Mexico would probably invite Chinese to farm in the sparsely populated north.

But in any case, the soldiers who conquer Mexico from Spain or whoever conquers it afterward will probably become the leaders of the country. Or, the Whatever Dynasty will send an envoy of nobles after the conquest.

Having criollos, mestizos, or indios rule Chinese Mexico would be unreliable.

So is this a vassal state or a colony/province/whatever of China? There's a huge difference.

And why would they be unreliable where as Chinese-descended people would be? The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away, as the saying goes.

Incidentally, I presume you are aware Mexico's sparely populated regions are sparsely populated for a reason - and that rice farming would do extremely poorly there.

But also obeys their liege's demands.

Perhaps a viceroyalty would be a better word for what I meant originally.

So a territory belonging to China, and not a vassal state.