Best possible routes for Mexico with a POD in the early 19th century

[Petike]

The title says it all.

By "best possible", I mean :
- a route to independence (whether sooner or later in OTL doesn't matter, as long as Mexico doesn't lose more from it than gains)
- greater social stability, better development of the domestic economy and greater industrialization
- stable politics, with no coup d'états or just one at the very most (in the early days), less radicalism and earlier cementing of a working democracy
- thanks to the above, an earlier serious status in the regional international scene

[Petike]

No takers ?

[Petike]

Sorry to reiterate, but is no one really interested in this topic ? I just wanted to talk a bit about the possibilities of Mexican AH and its possible untapped potential in TLs.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Petike

Sorry to reiterate, but is no one really interested in this topic ? I just wanted to talk a bit about the possibilities of Mexican AH and its possible untapped potential in TLs.

I'm working on a bit of a Mexico wank right now.......haven't been able to figure out what to call it, though.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm working on a bit of a Mexico wank right now.......haven't been able to figure out what to call it, though.

Is it an Empire or a Republic? How big does it become?

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Is it an Empire or a Republic? How big does it become?

I'm still working on it......but I can spoil things a little: There won't be an Empire and it's a tiny bit bigger than OTL's at some point.

[Petike]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm working on a bit of a Mexico wank right now.......haven't been able to figure out what to call it, though.

I'm not so much interested in a countrywank as just making things better and the country more succesful and stable. The prosperity and good international reputation will come by themselves, given enough time in these more pleasant condition.

Well, that's my wacky but proud little fetish as a TL writer: Making countries with miserable histories more bareable in ATLs.

[Zuvarq]

Get rid of Santa Anna before the Mexican American War, but not too early.

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm still working on it......but I can spoil things a little: There won't be an Empire and it's a tiny bit bigger than OTL's at some point.

¡Abajo el Imperio! ¡Viva la República!

¡Avancen, Soldados de México!

¡Libertad y Prosperidad!

La Hegemonía de México

Grito de Dolores, Grito de México

Desde el valle a las aristas del mundo

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm still working on it......but I can spoil things a little: There won't be an Empire and it's a tiny bit bigger than OTL's at some point.

A TL about a successful Mexico where it's not ruled by an overrated imperial regime? Consider me interested...

[NothingNow]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

I'm still working on it......but I can spoil things a little: There won't be an Empire and it's a tiny bit bigger than OTL's at some point.

This. This sounds very interesting.

Originally Posted by 9 Fanged Hummingbird

A TL about a successful Mexico where it's not ruled by an overrated imperial regime? Consider me interested...

I very much agree.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by 9 Fanged Hummingbird

A TL about a successful Mexico where it's not ruled by an overrated imperial regime? Consider me interested...

Well it is overrated but Maximilian wasn't too bad for an emperor.

But obviously we need a TL with a sovereign Mexican Empire ruled by the House of Washington.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by 9 Fanged Hummingbird

A TL about a successful Mexico where it's not ruled by an overrated imperial regime? Consider me interested...

Yep. POD's around the Van Buren era, btw. Just haven't figured out exactly what it is.

[Arkhangelsk]

I won't elaborate at the moment because oh god, I'm tired, but feel free to check out my timeline (linked in my sig). PoD is that things go "according to plan" immediately after the Grito de Dolores and the Mexican insurgents are led by Ignacio Allende, an actual military commander, and not the Priest Hidalgo.

[Petike]

Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk

I won't elaborate at the moment because oh god, I'm tired, but feel free to check out my timeline (linked in my sig). PoD is that things go "according to plan" immediately after the Grito de Dolores and the Mexican insurgents are led by Ignacio Allende, an actual military commander, and not the Priest Hidalgo.

I'm familiar with your TL, but thanks.

[oudi14]

Somehow I doubt it could have gone much better, given the condition of the population at the time. [A high rate of illiteracy, serfdom] But if Morelos had succeeded with his revolution, and then gone after the institutions that were keeping the peasants ground down, as opposed to trying it while the revolution was ongoing, things might have been different. At the very least, it would have meant an earlier independence, and you almost certainly butterfly Iturbide away, and perhaps Santa Anna as well. But I don't see it really solving Mexico's underlying problems.

[Petike]

Originally Posted by oudi14

Somehow I doubt it could have gone much better, given the condition of the population at the time. [A high rate of illiteracy, serfdom]

This is one of my main concerns. The Spanish colonial empire was the sick man of colonial empires during the 18th century and it is no wonder that its successors in the Americas were both impoverished and underdeveloped when they achieved independence.

Originally Posted by oudi14

But if Morelos had succeeded with his revolution, and then gone after the institutions that were keeping the peasants ground down, as opposed to trying it while the revolution was ongoing, things might have been different. At the very least, it would have meant an earlier independence, and you almost certainly butterfly Iturbide away, and perhaps Santa Anna as well. But I don't see it really solving Mexico's underlying problems.

Yes, I've maybe jumped the gun with my extremely limiting POD there (a divergence at the start of the 19th century probably won't do much good). So, let's try the 18th century. Could the Spanish CE or the local American governments have implemented some reforms that would leave Mexico better off if it achieved independence some time in the 19th century ? And when is it too late for the reforms ? (My TL starts in the 1770s.)

[Thande]

Jared mentioned one of the TLs he considered doing instead of Lands of Red and Gold was basically this but he decided against it. I don't remember him giving details beyond "A Mexico that settles down politically 100 years earlier than OTL" (i.e. in the 1830s not the 1930s).