AHC: American Sports in a Confederate Secession World

Aztinca · Oct 30, 2012

I've became a huge fan of MLB and some minor interest in others, which is when this came to mind. Here are the guidelines:

_____Sports in a C.S.W______

Time-Era limit: 1860-2012
State of the South: Can be OTL CSA or a Deep South CSA (OTL CSA before the other states, like Virginia, joined in the fray).
Sport Type: Any that you might like, as long as it is or will be a national American Sport (MLB, NBA, NFL, etc). [Note: Canada and Mexico are eligable.]
Facts/Information: Can be anything from a short sentance on the impact, to whole pages with descriptive analysis.
Explanation/Proving Factor: Use whatever means of explanation and...whatever.

_______The List_______

Key
Blue: Completed/Finished/Approved (Disputable)
Green: Under Work/Discussion
Red: Heated/Strong Arguments
Purple: Anything left by me
Orange: Unapproved/Eliminated (Disputable)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

__Sports__

Southern Football (Rugby + British Influence[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Northern Football (OTL Modern Equivelent[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Baseball (Northern[?], Illegal in CSA[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Baseball_Alt (Northern[?], Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Basketball
Jai alai (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Shinty (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Hurling (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Rounders (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Cricket (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Polo (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Croquet (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Boules (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Bowls (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Road Bowls (Southern[?], Irish Influenced[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Soccer (Southern[?], Northern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Gridiron (Southern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Lacross (Southern[?], Northern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])
Hockey (Southern[?], Northern[?], Minor/Major Sport[?])

__People__

Ty Cobb (Cricket[?], Famous Batsman[?])

__Places__

New England, US
Harvard, US
New Orleans
Charleston

__Nations__

United States of America
Confederate States of America
Canada
USSR
Australia
Mexico
United Kingdom
Union of South Africa
New Zealand

__Teams__

__Etc/Other__

Anglophobia
"Ye Cavaliers of Dixie" (Theme of Rugby Team Cavaliers[?])

To be Finished Later.

-Az

BELFAST · Oct 30, 2012

Does lynching count as a sport?

Umbric Man · Oct 30, 2012

BELFAST said:
Does lynching count as a sport?

As much as I genuinely despise the CSA, ignorance is more infuriating.

Baconheimer · Oct 30, 2012

In a genaric North-South World, with no major wars after the 1st one.

American Football Northern States Like American Football
American Rugby Southern States Football, but with more Rugby mixed in, due to British influences, a counter to the Norths football.
Baseball Akll Over More in the Industrialised North.
Basketball Never Invented!
Soccer In the South. Becuase of Pro-Bitritishisms, it is found in the south.

BELFAST · Oct 30, 2012

Faeelin · Oct 30, 2012

Didn't baseball already exist in New England?

It occurs to me that something like basketball could still take off in the CSA.

It's great; keeps the Negroes in shape, doesn't require any space....

Enigmajones · Oct 30, 2012

Baseball at this point has already been created and has permeated the South through the civil War. As a result, A form of baseball will come into existence and popularity in the Confederacy, just as another form will come into popularity in the USA. Now as to foreign sports, Anglophobia will be really big in the US, so I imagine that Football will likely still be formed in Harvard, and likely McGill, although for different reasons. In the Confederacy I expect the exact opposite. The upper class will find Rugby as an excellent way to show their wealth, and soccer will gain popularity in the major population centers of the CSA, where foreign merchant influence will be the heaviest. So I imagine that New Orleans and Charleston would have very strong Soccer traditions.

Baconheimer · Oct 30, 2012

Enigmajones said:
Baseball at this point has already been created and has permeated the South through the civil War. As a result, A form of baseball will come into existence and popularity in the Confederacy, just as another form will come into popularity in the USA. Now as to foreign sports, Anglophobia will be really big in the US, so I imagine that Football will likely still be formed in Harvard, and likely McGill, although for different reasons. In the Confederacy I expect the exact opposite. The upper class will find Rugby as an excellent way to show their wealth, and soccer will gain popularity in the major population centers of the CSA, where foreign merchant influence will be the heaviest. So I imagine that New Orleans and Charleston would have very strong Soccer traditions.

That is what I would have said, had I not just written out a few words.

frlmerrin · Oct 30, 2012

Gridiron and baseball in the North as OTL. I see no reason to imagine the USA will not be banned from playing Cricket with the Empire again as in OTL.

The South is more difficult. In a South which is not influenced by the British I would expect Gridiron for the whites and either Baseball or something else for the blacks. In a South where the British build the railways I would expect Gridiron for the whites along with Baseball or in the event of a really sucky-sucky relationship Cricket. The blacks get the beautiful game.

The Blue-Eyed Infidel · Oct 30, 2012

In a TL which I'm kinda-sorta plotting out (nothing on paper yet) which is a Canada-wank with a POD of an earlier and more violent Trent Affair causing Britain to declare as a co-belligerent during the Civil War, I've postulated the following:

Cricket for the planter/professional class of whites - the CSA plays regular test matches against Canada, and is nicknamed the Grey Caps.

Rugby for middle-class whites; the admission to the team of aspirant Hispanics was a matter of some controversy when it occured, but is at this point in the TL generally accepted. Nicknamed the Cavaliers. "Ye Cavaliers of Dixie" is sung during matches.

Soccer is viewed as a lower-class sport; indentures (there has been a quasi-liberalization of slavery, similar to DoD's peonage) and Hispanics play it, among whites, it is viewed as a game for children.

Baseball and gridiron are Northern sports, and playing them is viewed as unpatriotic in the CSA.

Lacrosse has a minor following in the CSA, due to cultural diffusion from Canada.

TB-EI

jamsodonnell · Oct 30, 2012

The Blue-Eyed Infidel said:
In a TL which I'm kinda-sorta plotting out (nothing on paper yet) which is a Canada-wank with a POD of an earlier and more violent Trent Affair causing Britain to declare as a co-belligerent during the Civil War, I've postulated the following:

Cricket for the planter/professional class of whites - the CSA plays regular test matches against Canada, and is nicknamed the Grey Caps.

Rugby for middle-class whites; the admission to the team of aspirant Hispanics was a matter of some controversy when it occured, but is at this point in the TL generally accepted. Nicknamed the Cavaliers. "Ye Cavaliers of Dixie" is sung during matches.

Soccer is viewed as a lower-class sport; indentures (there has been a quasi-liberalization of slavery, similar to DoD's peonage) and Hispanics play it, among whites, it is viewed as a game for children.

Baseball and gridiron are Northern sports, and playing them is viewed as unpatriotic in the CSA.

Lacrosse has a minor following in the CSA, due to cultural diffusion from Canada.

TB-EI

I like the idea. I wonder also if Hockey (field not ice) would also be a minor middle class sport too in this scenario

Aztinca · Oct 30, 2012

Loving the replies and ideas, so I'm going to add-on to the original Challange. What will happen to OTL players , managers, referees, etc if the South is able to sucessfully break off from the Union?

So hard to imagine Babe Ruth wearing a suit and tie, all the while trying to sell some newspapers.

The Blue-Eyed Infidel · Oct 30, 2012

jamsodonnell said:
I like the idea. I wonder also if Hockey (field not ice) would also be a minor middle class sport too in this scenario

As this is a Canada-wank, ice hockey is a major professional sport; however, the lack of covered arenas in the CSA (no basketball ITTL) has prevented it from making any headway there.

As a further aside, both rugby and cricket ITTL have an political import similar to the Canada-USSR hockey series IOTL; Canada (which is a corporatist/militarist state) and its allies (the CSA, the UK, the Union of South Africa) are generally boycotted by Australia and New Zealand (which are in a loose federation). Occasional matches have been organized, but it is by no means a regular thing - once every two years at most during relatively warm periods in the political relationship.

TB-EI

The Blue-Eyed Infidel · Oct 30, 2012

Aztinca said:
Loving the replies and ideas, so I'm going to add-on to the original Challange. What will happen to OTL players , managers, referees, etc if the South is able to sucessfully break off from the Union?

So hard to imagine Babe Ruth wearing a suit and tie, all the while trying to sell some newspapers.

Can't place the source, but I remember someone claiming that Ty Cobb would have been a superlative batsman in cricket.

TB-EI

thekingsguard · Oct 31, 2012

Why wouldn't basketball exist?

Dathi THorfinnsson · Oct 31, 2012

thekingsguard said:
Why wouldn't basketball exist?

Well, it was a relatively late ab novo invention (1891), by a Canadian living in the US. Somebody might come up with an indoor game, but there's no reason at all for it to have baskets up high. IMO.
Whereas things like Football and baseball had progenitors dating back ages, so will likely exist in some vaguely recognizable form, basketball was a clean sheet invention.

Aztinca · Oct 31, 2012

Just a Bump.

Just a Bump.

Eventualy I'm going to be putting together specific information that all of you have provided and perhaps logical arguments to be brought up once I release another thread going into more detail.

So, Ty Cobb's been nominated for Cricket by reccomendation, eh? Anyone else out their with ideas, arguments, the people, and butterflys (AH term) are welcomed and those who have contributed so far have my blessings and thanks.

List will be added to my starting post of what have been offered, but can be repealed by logical/crazy argument.

-Az

The Blue-Eyed Infidel · Oct 31, 2012

Aztinca said:
Just a Bump.

Eventualy I'm going to be putting together specific information that all of you have provided and perhaps logical arguments to be brought up once I release another thread going into more detail.

So, Ty Cobb's been nominated for Cricket by reccomendation, eh? Anyone else out their with ideas, arguments, the people, and butterflys (AH term) are welcomed and those who have contributed so far have my blessings and thanks.

List will be added to my starting post of what have been offered, but can be repealed by logical/crazy argument.

-Az

Well, for baseball / cricket, if you proceed with the assumption that cricket is going to be more popular in the CSA, then you can probably assume that OTL baseball players from the southern states with a high batting average (home run totals less important) might do all right.

If cricket and rugby union are bigger in the CSA, the amateur nature of these sports will suggest regional teams based on player origins. OTOH, professionalization may be accelerated. Up to you.

As Dathi mentioned upthread, basketball (at least in its OTL form) is probably butterflied out of existence; you may get a version of handball as an indoor / gymnasium sport instead; alternatively, indoor lacrosse may take off.

TB-EI

Aztinca · Oct 31, 2012

The Blue-Eyed Infidel said:
Well, for baseball / cricket, if you proceed with the assumption that cricket is going to be more popular in the CSA, then you can probably assume that OTL baseball players from the southern states with a high batting average (home run totals less important) might do all right.

If cricket and rugby union are bigger in the CSA, the amateur nature of these sports will suggest regional teams based on player origins. OTOH, professionalization may be accelerated. Up to you.

As Dathi mentioned upthread, basketball (at least in its OTL form) is probably butterflied out of existence; you may get a version of handball as an indoor / gymnasium sport instead; alternatively, indoor lacrosse may take off.

TB-EI

Hm, let me go down the line then..

Southern (Confederate States) Major League's

Major League Cricket (MLC)/Nickname: 'Dixie Cricket'
Major League Rugby (MLR) a/o Southern Rugby Conference (SRC)/Nickname: 'Dixieball'
Major League Soccer (MLS)/Nickname: Southern Groundball/Football
Confederate League Baseball (CLB) a/o Southern Baseball Conference (SBC)/Nickname: 'Southern Battersman' or 'Dixie Bat and Mitt'
Southern Association for Automobile Racing (SAAR) [Broke away from NASCAR in the early 1950's]

Northern (United States) Major League's

Major League Baseball (MLB)
Major League Football (MLF)
Major League Soccer (MLC) a/o N-American League Soccer (N-ALS)
Major League Hockey (MLH)

Shared/Similar

National Athletic Sport Conference (NASC)

Just some ideas conjured up. I still want to hear more before wrapping things up.
Thanks for the thoughts and ideas guys!

-Az

NothingNow · Oct 31, 2012

Faeelin said:
Didn't baseball already exist in New England?

In the North East and Cuba IIRC.

If anything, as soon as Baseball really gets big in Cuba (where it was very much wedded to Nationalism and the idea of revolution,) I could see the CSA, or landowners cracking down on slaves and freedmen playing the sport.

So it might not really get popular outside of Tampa there (where it would've been imported from Cuba.)