Prevent Visigothic Iberia

Hispania, once the source of soldiers, judges, generals, and Emperors was invaded by the Alans, Suvei, Vandals, and Visigoths in the early 5th century and much like most of Western was overrun by Germanics. I wonder if this could be avoided.

The most significant POD for the migration was of course in 403 when Gerontoius revolted against Constantine III and fought against his son Constans leaving the Pyrenees open for the Germanics to spill en masse. Constantine III was preparing to send troops to Hispania to repel the Germanics entry when Gerontoius revolted. If he remains loyal then perhaps the Visigoths, Suvei, and Vandals are decimated in the mountains between the Romans and Franks.

Loyalty to the Emperor:

An did Gerontius and Caesar Constans wage war against the Barbarian Suvei, the Vandals, and the Alansin the name of Emperor Constantine III. Pushing them back into the Mountains as they wanted for food. Following this string of victories their people were dispersed and died in their thousands. With this victory at his belt the Emperor still had much to worry about. Britannia in the North had broken from his neglectful rule and Honorius having reigned against his Co Emperor sent Constius and the Visigoths under Aftula to defeat the Gallic Emperor.

The Battle of Arles smashed Honorius's military power and crushed the Visigoths. As the battle was joined by every loyal Gerontius and his general Edobichus, a Frank, who had successfully recruited Franks from across the Rhine and brought them to battle. Then Constantine III marched into Italy and besieged Ravenna whereupon the remnants of the Goths joined against Honorius (as many were still sore from the massacre of Stilicho) and deposed Him. The Emperor then declared his son Constans co-Emperor and sought to return Roman rule to Britannia and Northern Gaul. Meanwhile though tensions rose with the Eastern Empire.

Do you want to prevent it after or before the germanic invasions happen?
You've given a nice scenario before the fact. I feel more attracted to the conflict between the aryan Visigoth kingdom and the catholic Suebi kingdom, Frank kingdom, Byzantium and Hermenegild's rebels.

IOTL Franks withdrew their support, the Suebi king died of illness in his incursion to help Hermenegild, after a minor defeat (which triggered a civil war soon enough), and the eastern Emperor shifted the focus from the west to the east, after the germans began to invade Italy.

All in all, Liuvigild, despite being a strong and militarily gifted king, had a lot of luck. A stronger Byzantine intervention could trigger 2 different effects, depending on the success of Hermenegild's rebellion:
-if the rebellion success, the statu quo could be maintained, and 3 different states would remain stable in the peninsule (Galicia, Hispania and the Byzantine southern coast).
-if the rebellion had failed, the balance of power could be significantly shifted. If the empire decided that holding the Iberian peninsule was a significant goal, they could have taken over the Visigothic kingdom, or at least limit it to the areas where the Visigoths were more densely settled, and reduce them to a tributary state.

Ugh, this reeks of ASB

You are talking about a situation a century and some after my POD.

For me I am partial to prevent it prior to major Germanic incursion.

EDIT: Aha! It seems toward the end of Alaric's reign, just prior to his death, he was moving the Goths south to Africa, but the ships were destroyed and so upon his death Ataulf lead the Goths north into Gaul and into Hispania. So if the Goths make way into fertile Africa then they may not go to Hispania.

King of Malta said:

You are talking about a situation a century and some after my POD.

For me I am partial to prevent it prior to major Germanic incursion.

EDIT: Aha! It seems toward the end of Alaric's reign, just prior to his death, he was moving the Goths south to Africa, but the ships were destroyed and so upon his death Ataulf lead the Goths north into Gaul and into Hispania. So if the Goths make way into fertile Africa then they may not go to Hispania.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's much much later than yours. It would be basically destroying the visigothic kingdom prior to uniting the peninsula politically and religiously. Plus i like the idea of a Byzantine empire bottlenecking both muslim invasion paths into Europe: Turkey and Spain.

About Alaric moving south to Africa, i would bet it's because Mauretania Tingitana was part of the diocesis of Hispania, and probably felt it was his right to claim it too and rid finally of the vandals and allans, who were resorting to piracy. Northern Africa is fertile, yes, but nowhere near as fertile as southern and eastern Spain. Too nice a prize to give up

jotabe1789 said:

Yeah, it's much much later than yours. It would be basically destroying the visigothic kingdom prior to uniting the peninsula politically and religiously.

About Alaric moving south to Africa, i would bet it's because Mauretania Tingitana was part of the diocesis of Hispania, and probably felt it was his right to claim it too and rid finally of the vandals and allans, who were resorting to piracy. Northern Africa is fertile, yes, but nowhere near as fertile as southern and eastern Spain. Too nice a prize to give up

Click to expand...

It seemed the main thrust was to control the supply of grain to Rome, at least that was alleged against them. The Vandals and Alan's had yet to be pushed out of the Iberia by the Visigoths or the Suvei. With those three fighting a unified Iberia culture would probably not form.

WI Honorius (and with him Stilicho) had set up his capital at Arelatum instead of Ravenna?

That means the top priority will be protecting Gaul, not Italy. So Radagaisus will probably last a few years longer. Iirc his host included quite a few Suevi and Vandals who later took part in the crossing of the Rhine. TTL, they are in Italy when the Rhine freezes, so the invasion of Gaul is a lot weaker and Stilicho probably sees it off.

At some point, Alaric is probably called in to polish off Radagaisus. But once that's done, he's in Italy, with intact Gallic and Byzantine Empires on both his flanks. So at some point a joint effort by the two Empires may well finish him off.

Mikestone8 said:

WI Honorius (and with him Stilicho) had set up his capital at Arelatum instead of Ravenna?

That means the top priority will be protecting Gaul, not Italy. So Radagaisus will probably last a few years longer. Iirc his host included quite a few Suevi and Vandals who later took part in the crossing of the Rhine. TTL, they are in Italy when the Rhine freezes, so the invasion of Gaul is a lot weaker and Stilicho probably sees it off.

At some point, Alaric is probably called in to polish off Radagaisus. But once that's done, he's in Italy, with intact Gallic and Byzantine Empires on both his flanks. So at some point a joint effort by the two Empires may well finish him off.

Click to expand...

Hmm, we'll that would depend on why he would move his capital there. Given that it is not in Italy it would seem more likely that as soon as Constantine's forces cross the Channel they could take out Honorious. At the time travel between Gaul and Italy was problematic due in part to brigands that had come to control the region. So to move the capital out of Italy would be a major loss of a prestige of sorts. with his main support in Italy I am not sure he will move there in the face o weakening defenses on the Rhine.

Well, the Visigoths didn't invade Hispania along with the other Germanic peoples listed. They were invited later by the Romans to reconquer Hispania for them. At the time this happened the Visigoths were established in Aquitania as allies of the Romans (foederati).

So you are looking at two possible scenarios:

1) Germanics never make it into Spain (as you noted, because the Romans don't take the legions warding the Pyrenees away)

2) Sueves, Alans and Vandals invade, but the Romans can't/don't send the Visigoths after them. You are left with 3 a Suevic kingdom in Gallaecia, an Alan kingdom in Lusitania and a Vandal kingdom* in Baetica, with the Romans holding the Tarraconensis for the time being. With two possible alternatives:

2.1) Visigoths still settle in Aquitania, and are in the same position to move into Spain when/if Rome falls.

2.2) Romans never lose (give up) Aquitania. So even if Rome falls, you are still left with a Kingdom of Syagrius on steroids going from Belgium to Valencia.

*Additional question: Do the Vandals still make it into Africa? Yes? No? Yes but they are weakened because they don't take the second wave of Vandals and Alans expelled by the Visigoths form Spain to boost their armies/population? Alaric goes to Africa first and prevents the establishment of a Vandal kingdom there altogether (but with the same results for Rome)?

Therego what would be the ethnic and cultural identity of a Non Germanic Hispania or a Alan-Vandal-Suvei Hispania?

I suppose some research into OTL Suevic and (African) Vandal kingdoms, of whom I don't reallyknow much about, is in order. But the basis is the same as with the Goths: you have a society divided between a large Roman(ized) population and a tiny Germanic aristocracy. The Sueves and the Vandals were Arrians like the Goths. I don't know what religion did the Alans have.

In any case, the Alans had the short stick. They were the less numerous and they were placed between the Sueves and the Vandals. In fact the Sueves were already hammering them down and expanding to the south when the Goths showed up, destroyed one and put the other (literally) in a corner. So I would expect the Sueves to destroy them instead, maybe the Vandals too.

What about the Non-Germanic Hispania?

Poking around abit it would appear that the Suevi quickly became absorbed by the local population.

King of Malta said:

What about the Non-Germanic Hispania?

Poking around abit it would appear that the Suevi quickly became absorbed by the local population.

Click to expand...

That's what i read, regarding the suevi. Then again, the sources i read from had a galician nationalist slant, so they could be forcing things a bit to make it look like Galicia as a coherent and independent people had begun to exist very early on...

Oh that. It's amazing how much bullshit can one single person spill on the internet (I'm sure he's the same that was trolling Wikipedia with the same thing). In this subject, as in everything, ignore information that is not published, or at least take it with a gran of salt.

King of Malta said:

Loyalty to the Emperor:

An did Gerontius and Caesar Constans wage war against the Barbarian Suvei, the Vandals, and the Alansin the name of Emperor Constantine III. Pushing them back into the Mountains as they wanted for food. Following this string of victories their people were dispersed and died in their thousands. With this victory at his belt the Emperor still had much to worry about. Britannia in the North had broken from his neglectful rule and Honorius having reigned against his Co Emperor sent Constius and the Visigoths under Aftula to defeat the Gallic Emperor.

The Battle of Arles smashed Honorius's military power and crushed the Visigoths. As the battle was joined by every loyal Gerontius and his general Edobichus, a Frank, who had successfully recruited Franks from across the Rhine and brought them to battle. Then Constantine III marched into Italy and besieged Ravenna whereupon the remnants of the Goths joined against Honorius (as many were still sore from the massacre of Stilicho) and deposed Him. The Emperor then declared his son Constans co-Emperor and sought to return Roman rule to Britannia and Northern Gaul. Meanwhile though tensions rose with the Eastern Empire.

Click to expand...

The deposition of Honorius sent a shock wave through relations with the Eastern Roman Empire as Constantine III had effectively deposed the uncle of the 'reigning' Emperor Theodosius II. The two halves of the Roman Empire were being governed by two different families. Theodosius's prefect Anthemius and power behind the Emperor made to send soldiers to take back the Western Empire, but Constantinople was suffering from grain shortages due to Goth Pirates that had been forced south by Constantine and had sailed across the Mediterranean to settle in Africa (Carthage).