WI more succesful knghts teuton allies with poland

First of all I want to apologize if this topic has been discussed before.

Oke here’s the pod.

In out TL 1386. The grand duke of Lithuania, Jogaila, was baptized, married the queen of Poland Jadwiga, and became king Ladislaus II of Poland

In this TL this marriage never takes place both marry some one else say a German princes or princes of one of the rather small and in important country's there.

The battle of Battle of Grunwald also known as the battle of Tannenberg still takes place but in this TL it’s a big victory for the order.

The order continues on to conquer big parts of Lithuania seeing its chance in taking some land for them self the poles also Dow Lithuania and take the more southern part of the country.

What follows are 20 years of relative peace as both the order and the poles consolidate the gains.

realizing that they have more to gain in cooperation than warring with each other they make an alliance and marry (as it was custom in that time) one of there siblings with each other, they decide on an policy to Christianize (conquer) the east.

So how would history unfold if they worked together instead of warring against each other?

We get Pruland?

The problem is the Teutonic Knights are... teutons, or Germans, part of the Deutsch. The Poles are Slavs, linguistically, culturally and historically two separate peoples. The other problem is they aren't really trying to live together as much as the Teutons are trying to expand Eastward into lands the Poles have already occupied, coming from the West in the 9thc. At least such is my understanding of the matter.

I don't see how this could happen. I could be wrong though, I'd appreciate someone explaining a way around the above difficulty.

wel yes the poles are slavic and the knights Teutons are germanic but both are
germans but both are also catholics and if i read the wikipedia correct up untill the battle at Tannenberg there where no major battles of the poles and the knights.

also the knights teuton where given the right/misson by the pope to Christianize the baltics and all of russia, what if they took this more seriously and allied with there fellow christian poles to convert the russian (conquer them) to the true religion, i am by no way saying that this alliance will be an lasting one.

And a few decades earlier, around 1310, the Order had taken away the corridor from Poland. Of course that didn't make them popular.

I can only see them fighting together against a common enemy... Russians, Mongols?

If the Grand Master of the Teutonic order had married Jadwiga he could have become the king of Poland instead of Wladislav Jagello.

If the Teutonic Knights took over Lithuania, would they try to Germanize it as they were doing in Prussia?

Probably, since the Lithuanian people would suffer losses when the knights hack down all those who don't want to convert. As long as they can get settlers from Germany, of course. Another problem: As it seems, most of western Lithuania (except the Memel / Njemen valley) was unsettleable forest and swamp at that time.

We're talking about something very unlikely here. Interesting, but unlikely.

you have to go back to about 1000AD. The first mention of the Poles in history is in conflict with the HRE. Miesko I wound up converting to RC as a way around being the brunt of a German crusade. Specifically he proclaimed himself and his country an "insrument of the church". This so impressed the Pope that he instantly made Poland its own Bishopric (essentially equal to the HRE from an ecclesiastical point of view). Miesko then went on to beat up on the Germans in the inevitable war which followed (actually more of a bunch of skirmishes).

Fast forward a couple hundred years and you'll find it's Poland pushing for the Teutonic Order to occupy Prussia because a) they were having trouble subduing the Prussians themselves and b) they thought they could control it. I forget which king actually pushes for it, but it has to rank as one of the absolute worst moves in all of european history. The knights can't be controlled and very quickly establish a state with the intent of agressive conquest.

Underlying all this (and I say this as a person who is 100% polish) is the Poles complete ineptitude and disinterest in foreign policy. Right around this time they are about to be presented with a massive opportunity - the thrones of Lithuania AND Hungary. but there doesn't seem to be much of a push for permanant union with either of them - Lith. is only unified with as a way to decrease the power of the king and increase the power of individual lords.

So in essence, Polish policy at that point seems to be driven by three things:
1) beat up on the germans
2) beat up on the Muscovites (russians, et al)
3) be as free as possible to do whatever the local lords want.

It's not a particuarly bad way to run your country. If you drop Poland into N.A. at that time you'd pobably get the first real democracy in a couple of centuries. However, in a place where Germany and Russia are starting to consolidate into nationalistic, centralized govt's it's a recipie for disaster.

If, somehow the T.O. manages to accumulate northern lithuania, it would either a) trigger war with poland or b) a partition of lithuania. now, keep in mind, I doubt T.O. would allow a non knight on the throne. Regardless, it might redirect Poland's interest away from the east and either southward or westward (to the balkans or central europe.) At the time there was some interest in getting closer to Italy (they viewed the Papacy as a close ally). The land grab might also change the Polish outlook on life, pushing them towards a centralized government. Though it would be a smaller Poland, it might then be more able to successfully combat russia and the ottomans. Furhtermore, it might look more towards the black sea and the adriatic than the baltic (which was another long-term pipe dream for them as well). Considering that over the next 400 years their biggest challenges are going to come from those directions, fifty years' head start there migt give them the edge they needed.

Just some thoughts,

john

PS: does. using the abbreviation T.O. for the teutonic Order look more like Terril Owens or is it just me?

Weren't the Teutonic Knights called by Conrad of Mazovia because the Prussians were raiding his lands ?

They were certainly called by some Polish king (duke?), but I can't remember which one. He gave them the land of Kulm (western East Prussia), and the rest is history.

But why should the Poles declare war on the Order if they conquered Lithunia, as long as the latter one is still pagan? The pope certainly wouldn't like that. And besides, Poland was pretty divided at that point. The Order could be very lucky.

And who's Terrill Owens anyway?

Poland was divided into several dukedoms during the XIIIth century , when the T.O. arrived but it was reunited in 1320 by Wladyslaw Lokietek , before the POD.

It might be possible to make the T.O. and Poland allies , because the Lithuanians were pagans and they sometimes raided the Polish lands .
If Jagiello had refused to convert , then he wouldn't have been able to marry Jadwiga and Poland and Lithuania would have stayed separated.

And if Jadwiga would had married a German noble instead , Poland might have become an ally of the T.O.

Andrei said:

Poland was divided into several dukedoms during the XIIIth century , when the T.O. arrived but it was reunited in 1320 by Wladyslaw Lokietek , before the POD.

It might be possible to make the T.O. and Poland allies , because the Lithuanians were pagans and they sometimes raided the Polish lands .
If Jagiello had refused to convert , then he wouldn't have been able to marry Jadwiga and Poland and Lithuania would have stayed separated.

And if Jadwiga would had married a German noble instead , Poland might have become an ally of the T.O.

Click to expand...

yes, but the poles and lithuanians had a common enemy in the "russians" which was more in their interest than the TO's.

furthermore, although the Poles were roman catholic, it was, like with everythign else, a peculiar variety of RC. When it was in their interest, they followed the rules of the church explicitely, and when it wasn't they just ignored them. so having a pagan lithuania allied with them would not be as distasteful as having catholic germans trying to take over their land. in other words, religion was simply a tool to be used.
the church knew this as well, but also knew that an independent poland in conflict with the HRE and the TO was in the papacy's greater interest. so they let a lot slide in poland (it's one of the reasons why the reformation and counterreformation didn't affect poland much.)

again, you'd have to either rework the polish national psyche from the ground up to have them side with the germans willingly or have something happen to redirect poland away from the baltic and south and westward.

not saying that it couldn't happen. more likely as allies against a common enemy (another mongol horde or something) than through some sort of union. and i doubt lithuania would accede to any sort of union with the germans. they would not get as good as deal as they would with the poles.


lastly, a look at Gedimas' entry in wikipedia might help illustrate that the ties between poland and lithuania run back to the early 1300s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gediminas

oh.. and terril owens is (was?) a wide receiver for the american football team "Philadelphia eagles". he got into trouble this year for having a big mouth. all the sports announcers just call him t.o..