The Junkers 88 is Germany's only medium bomber

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Deleted member 1487

What if after 1941 the Luftwaffe cancels all other medium bombers and focuses only on manufacturing the Ju88?

I post this on another forum on a different topic, so ignore the references to the He177, which won't be any different than IOTL:
Now, with the He177 operational the He111 might well and should be phased out in 1941-2 to free up resources for the HE177 AND the Ju88. In fact if you are so interested in Ju88 production, then the He111 should be cancelled by 1942 in this scenario and the Do217 never built, instead the capacity of Dornier used for the proven and cheaper Ju88 that was much more useful historically, as they could produce more of them for the same materials, money, and manpower, especially as by 1942 there was already plenty of experience producing this model, much more than the brand new Do217, which really didn't offer that much more performance than the Ju88, at least not enough to justify the type proliferation in the operational bomber category, which would require years to develop the same production efficiency that had already been worked into Ju88 production.

Not only that, but the Do217 was decidedly inferior to the Ju88 as a nightfighter, yet hundreds of Do217 nightfighters were produced. As a bomber the Ju88 was faster and therefore had greater survivability than the Do217, while as a naval bomber the Do217 was a poor mix between heavy and medium bomber, as it lacked the heavy defensive firepower and armor of a true heavy bomber and lacked the speed of a true medium bomber like the Ju88.

Skipping the Do217 and saving nearly 2,000 models for Ju88 production instead would have been a much better use of resources, as the Ju88 would have been more useful, survivable, and would have higher production numbers for the same material and labor than the heavier Do217.

And we can go further and cancel the Me210/410, saving nearly another 2,000 actually produced and about another 2,000 in lost production time from tooling up for the Me210 too early.
The Ju88 heavy fighter variant even as a bomber destroyer would have been just as useful and it was far more useful as a night fighter in 1941 and beyond. Of course the Bf110 should be kept until it could be replaced by the Ju88C or G.

Saving those 6,000 or so (probably close to 5,000 to be fair) less useful and more expensive other types of bombers for Ju88 production expansion would have been far more useful than canceling the He177B. In fact the increased economy of scale gained by converting to just the Ju88 for all of these roles (heavy fighter, bomber destroyer, speed/medium bomber, naval bomber, and night fighter) would yield huge dividends in economy of scale and standardization of parts.

In a world of just the Ju87, Ju88, and He177 as Germany's bombers (FW190 and HS129 aren't counted as bombers for this, but are still produced as historically), production would have been much higher, spare parts would have been plentiful compared to our timeline of events (OTL for future reference), and everything would have been probably more survivable. Plus the Ju88 didn't use nearly as much fuel as the Do217, so probably there would be a bit more fuel than OTL.
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What effect would a monoculture of bomber production have had on Germany production numbers in 1941 and on? The only night fighter produced in 1941 and on would have been Ju88, which would also be the bomber destroyer, the sole level bomber, and fit in all the various roles of the Me210/410, Do217, and He111 did IOTL from 1941 on. Let's assume that the mistake of messing around with the He177 continues, but all other types are eliminated (except for the Ju87, Hs129, and Fw190 bomber).
 

cortz#9

Seems like a crazy question at first, only ONE type of med. bomber?! But when you think about it, well it could do any job the He111, or Do217 could do and do it better plus it could do things they couldn't. So yeah makes sense to me, but I'm sure the the next poster will tell me I'm wrong and go into detail why.
 

BigWillyG

Rationalizing production on one design rather than making small numbers of several different models to do the same jobs could only help with increasing production and easing training and maintainence. Getting the Germans to rationalize production though will be hard.
 

Just Leo

Sortie numbers by type and loss ratios are kind of hard to come by with any cosistent accuracy but all agree that although the Ju-88 wasn't the type with the most sorties, during the BoB, it was the type with the highest loss ratio vs He-111 and Do-17Z, both heritage types, and the He-111 did have better payload/range with internal bomb stowage. It would be tricky calculating the exact moment when the Ju-88 offered sufficient performance improvements to tear up existing production plans, since plans existed for future replacement types which never came to fruition. Who knew that double engines would be so finicky. While the Me-210 was a great fiasco, it was not an anticipated fiasco, and dismissing it out of hand in favor of an American-designed machine may not have achieved acceptance among German officials.
 

Deleted member 1487

Just Leo said:
Sortie numbers by type and loss ratios are kind of hard to come by with any cosistent accuracy but all agree that although the Ju-88 wasn't the type with the most sorties, during the BoB, it was the type with the highest loss ratio vs He-111 and Do-17Z, both heritage types, and the He-111 did have better payload/range with internal bomb stowage. It would be tricky calculating the exact moment when the Ju-88 offered sufficient performance improvements to tear up existing production plans, since plans existed for future replacement types which never came to fruition. Who knew that double engines would be so finicky. While the Me-210 was a great fiasco, it was not an anticipated fiasco, and dismissing it out of hand in favor of an American-designed machine may not have achieved acceptance among German officials.
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The Ju88 was not american designed, it had some technology from an american designer.
As it was Goering considering it his 'wunder bomber'.
Care to provide a source or sources to the claim that it had the highest losses per sortee?

Though the He111 carried more internally with the H series, which appeared in production at the same time as the Ju88, it carried less over all, as the lower weight to HP ration of the Ju88 was better, meaning that with its external hardpoints it carried more ordnance, which did slow the aircraft down and reduce range, but not below that of the HE111.
 

AdA

If we're talking post 1941, how about a phased swich for the Ju188, replacing the Do217, He111 and Ju88?
 

zoomar

The Ju-88 was obviously the only bomber in the original trio (Ju-88, He-111, and Do-17) that had the performance and stretch to be the Lufftwaffe's only medium bomber. But it would be a bad idea. It would pretty much ensure that, by 1942-43, the Luftwaffe was saddled with medium bomber that was approaching obsolescence and comparatively less capable (as a level medium bomber) than its American (B-25/B-26 and Soviet (Tu-2) counterparts.

Given how the RLM tended to be reluctant to approve design modifications to proven aircraft that could interrupt production lines, there is a good chance that the Ju-88 would be frozen in its "A" bomber model long past its shelf-life, with improved models such as the Ju-88B, Ju-188 and Ju-388 delayed even further. In OTL this caution delayed the limited introduction of the 188 at least 2 years. If the '88 was only medium bomber in production, it might be worse. Having multiple medium bombers in production OTL allowed more flexibility in proceeding with radically improved models (such as the Do-217 from the Do-17) without affecting the production of other types during the transition.

Also, I suspect the "Bomber B" program would still be initiated, with the presumption that the Ju-288 would be ready to replace the Ju-88 by 1942/43. Presuming the program was a complete disaster as in OTL, the situation would be even worse if the decision was to stay with the "frozen" Ju-88 and forgo the incremental Ju-188 for the radically better (on paper) Ju-288.

Another question. If the RLM decided to focus on the Ju-88 as it's only medium bomber, could this affect the etent to which heavy and night fighter versions of the Ju-88 were developed? I could see this going either way, actually.
 

historyfool

Fundamentally a good idea. But like all standardisation ideas it has the problem that Germany had not true mass-production like USA or USSR. Thus they were always pressed to get a maximum number of hulls even if they were of dated designs. They simply did not dare to shut down a large number of production lines at the same time for retooling, reusing even parts from completely outdated designs in new ways (the Wespe comes to mind, which was based on the Panzer II). Though for medium bombers this should be less of a problem than for fighters or tanks.
 

Deleted member 1487

AdA said:
If we're talking post 1941, how about a phased swich for the Ju188, replacing the Do217, He111 and Ju88?
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IIRC the Ju188 wasn't operational until 1943 because of the LW put so much emphasis on prepping the Ju288 for replacing all of the above. So research on the 188 was delayed.

historyfool said:
Fundamentally a good idea. But like all standardisation ideas it has the problem that Germany had not true mass-production like USA or USSR. Thus they were always pressed to get a maximum number of hulls even if they were of dated designs. They simply did not dare to shut down a large number of production lines at the same time for retooling, reusing even parts from completely outdated designs in new ways (the Wespe comes to mind, which was based on the Panzer II). Though for medium bombers this should be less of a problem than for fighters or tanks.
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The HE111 was shut down anyway and by 1941 the Do217 hadn't entered mass production, so Dornier could have instead tooled up for the Ju88 instead of the Do217 at that time. That was simply a matter of priorities rather than maximizing existing output, because the Do217 wasn't fully tooled up for until 1942.

zoomar said:
The Ju-88 was obviously the only bomber in the original trio (Ju-88, He-111, and Do-17) that had the performance and stretch to be the Lufftwaffe's only medium bomber. But it would be a bad idea. It would pretty much ensure that, by 1942-43, the Luftwaffe was saddled with medium bomber that was approaching obsolescence and comparatively less capable (as a level medium bomber) than its American (B-25/B-26 and Soviet (Tu-2) counterparts.
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Considering the shortages of bombers due to low production that Germany had in 1939-1943, it wouldn't hurt to standardize on one design, even if that design were not perfect. The problem wasn't competing with Allied bombers, but rather allied fighters, which, at least on the Eastern Front until 1944 and in the Mediterranean until 1943, really the only two theaters that mattered for bombers, the Ju88 was plenty sufficient. By 1944 you are right, the Ju88 was obselescent, but because the Bomber B project failed and the Ju88 could not be replaced as planned. Until then the Ju88 gave sterling service and was really the best option for Germany given the options available.

zoomar said:
Given how the RLM tended to be reluctant to approve design modifications to proven aircraft that could interrupt production lines, there is a good chance that the Ju-88 would be frozen in its "A" bomber model long past its shelf-life, with improved models such as the Ju-88B, Ju-188 and Ju-388 delayed even further. In OTL this caution delayed the limited introduction of the 188 at least 2 years. If the '88 was only medium bomber in production, it might be worse. Having multiple medium bombers in production OTL allowed more flexibility in proceeding with radically improved models (such as the Do-217 from the Do-17) without affecting the production of other types during the transition.
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The Ju388 was never operational, the Ju188 was delayed by the Ju288 project, which failed and then let the Ju188 proceed. The Ju88B was the Ju188. There is no reason whatsoever to assume that focusing medium bomber production in the Ju88 would delay things more than OTL. Caution over the Ju88 had nothing to do with the Ju188 being delayed. It was delayed because the Bomber B superceded it and the Ju88 was to be replaced by the Ju288; the problem was that the Ju288 failed, so then the LW was left scrambling to upgrade the Ju88 and were left with the marginally improved Ju188, which really didn't justify switching over production for.
As to having multiple versions in production, that makes no sense. The Germans were going for radical improved models IOTL with the Bomber B Ju288, but were left with nothing when it failed. The Ju88 ran on multiple lines and with my POD they would run on even more. So when the shift to the Ju188 happens they would do what they did IOTL, shift some of the lines over to the Ju188 while keeping the Ju88 going on others and when the Ju188 lines were up to speed, switch the rest over to Ju188 production.

zoomar said:
Also, I suspect the "Bomber B" program would still be initiated, with the presumption that the Ju-288 would be ready to replace the Ju-88 by 1942/43. Presuming the program was a complete disaster as in OTL, the situation would be even worse if the decision was to stay with the "frozen" Ju-88 and forgo the incremental Ju-188 for the radically better (on paper) Ju-288.
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How would it be worse? They would have more bombers available for operations, bombers with comparable performance to the Do217, which was a large step over the 1934 Do17, but not the Ju88. The Ju88 was not frozen, as there were several Ju88A numbers (0-4) as well as several other 'letters' (C,D,H,P,S). It continued to evolve as the war went on and had a huge variety of 'field conversion kits' to keep it competitive. Obviously the Ju288 would have been better, but there was no guarantee that the Ju288 would work and really only failed because of the failure of the Jumo222 engine, which also doomed the Do317 and 417.
Plus the Ju188 wasn't really at that much better than the Ju88A4 at least not enough to justify reducing the number of bombers to convert to the new version. That's also my point here about Germany's other bombers, type proliferation did not justify having too few bombers, especially in the 1941-43/4 period when they really could have helped in Russia and the VVS was terrible at taking down the Ju88 (considering the LW could operate with the HE111 still in 1944 in Russia!)

zoomar said:
Another question. If the RLM decided to focus on the Ju-88 as it's only medium bomber, could this affect the etent to which heavy and night fighter versions of the Ju-88 were developed? I could see this going either way, actually.
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No, because that is the entire reason for focusing on one type: economy of scale. It would be the only type that could be converted to those roles and could share some parts between them. Just like IOTL when there was tremendous demand for bombers, the heavy and night fighter versions were still produced because they were the best in their class that Germany fielded. Here they would have no other choice than to field those types as well, but will have even greater production of all of the above.
 
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AdA

wiking said:
IIRC the Ju188 wasn't operational until 1943 because of the LW put so much emphasis on prepping the Ju288 for replacing all of the above. So research on the 188 was delayed.


Something we can correct. If they had been working on a proper 4 engined bomber from the start, the whole Bomber B mess could have been avoided. The Do317, Ju288, etc, projects would have been droped (they were trying to get too much out of two engines anyway) and the Ju188 could have been adpted from late 1941 as the next generation twin engined everything (Bomber, Recce, Night Fighter) It would have to use BMW 801 engines at first, with Jumo 213 engines joining in ASAP.
This would probably involve a major effort to get as much 801 built as possible. There would be very little need for Jumo 211 with such a move, so Junkers would be strogly motivated to get the 213 working quickly.
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Deleted member 1487

AdA said:
wiking said:
IIRC the Ju188 wasn't operational until 1943 because of the LW put so much emphasis on prepping the Ju288 for replacing all of the above. So research on the 188 was delayed.


Something we can correct. If they had been working on a proper 4 engined bomber from the start, the whole Bomber B mess could have been avoided. The Do317, Ju288, etc, projects would have been droped (they were trying to get too much out of two engines anyway) and the Ju188 could have been adpted from late 1941 as the next generation twin engined everything (Bomber, Recce, Night Fighter) It would have to use BMW 801 engines at first, with Jumo 213 engines joining in ASAP.
This would probably involve a major effort to get as much 801 built as possible. There would be very little need for Jumo 211 with such a move, so Junkers would be strogly motivated to get the 213 working quickly.
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I disagree with that. IOTL the He177 was being produced in large numbers (1,200 total), yet the Bomber B was about maximizing the performance of the medium bomber type. It had nothing to do with heavy, strategic bombing. The Ju188 might have actually appeared earlier here as there would be more lines working on the Ju88 so there is less fear about reducing production to upgrade, but it won't have anything to do with heavy bomber construction.

Edit: why not more emphasis on the DB603? It had everything the Jumo 213 did, just a year earlier.
Also they couldn't shift everything all at once, they would have to phase in the Ju188, which would take time and the same pressure would be to wait for the Ju288 so they didn't have to do it twice. Of course if we could somehow save the Jumo222, then the Ju288 would actually work.
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Gannt the chartist

what Zoomar said.

You are replacing three capable but aging medium bombers with one capable but aging medium bomber.

I also think your base numbers are misleading, the production you give is for the whole life you need to look at year by year numbers but even with + 6000 a/c that raises german bomber production to a bit more than 20% of allied mpost of which is technically superior.
 

Deleted member 1487

Gannt the chartist said:
what Zoomar said.

You are replacing three capable but aging medium bombers with one capable but aging medium bomber.

I also think your base numbers are misleading, the production you give is for the whole life you need to look at year by year numbers but even with + 6000 a/c that raises german bomber production to a bit more than 20% of allied mpost of which is technically superior.
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Considering all of the shortages that Germany experienced of bombers, having the extra aircraft, which I am aware were produced over the length of the war, could only help. Also its not just that base number, but an even higher production number because of the economy of scale that would develop from monoculture production. The result might be at least 1000 bombers beyond the 6000 or so produced at a minimum.

Part of the problem too was the delays imposed by trying to introduce designs that never worked, which, yes I know, were thought to be viable at the time. The Do217 though was obviously unnecessary IMHO by the time it entered production, because it offered little better performance over the Ju88. So cancel it in 1940, which is enough time to get a sense of the design at its problems, and instead focus on expanding and boosting Ju88 production. Instead of the redundant Me210, with its dive bombing silliness, wait until it is first tested to demonstrate whether it can fly before ordering tooling for production. See that it doesn't work in 1939-40 and instead cancel the Bf110 for even more Ju88 production, as the Ju88 had the ability to perform all of its duties even better. Hell, even Milch wanted to kill Messerschimdt's work at that time.

Phase out the He111 that offered weaker performance and slower speed at greater cost in materials and number of crew for the cheaper, easier to make, fewer crewed Ju88.
All of that means then that the production is focused on one model with several variants that utilize many of the same parts. This standardizes part construction, allowing for major expansion of subcontractors instead of having to produce a bunch of different subcomponents in parallel.
 

zoomar

Wiking, I appreciate your knowledge, but I think you are missing one of my points. The RLM cancelled work on the Ju-88B and delayed introduction of the similar, but somewhat more improved Ju-188 for two reasons. Yes, one reason they did this is that the presumed the Ju-288 would be available by 1943 at the latest, but they also did not want to interrupt Ju-88 production to tool up for the Ju-188 in the interim.

It hold to my opinion that, had the Ju-88 been the only medium bomber in production, the RLM would be even more conservative regarding introduction of improved Ju-88 bomber models.

And yes, I also hold that the basic Ju-88 bomber was esentially frozen around the 1939 "A" airframe. Most of the other versions you mention were either heavy fighters, nightfighters, or very specialized recce and recce-bombers. By switching to incremental improvements such as the Ju-88B/188, which could have been in place by late 1941 (setting the stage for further incremental improvements such as the 388 much earlier), the Ju-88 family would have kept pace with developments abroad as well as the Luftwaffe's medium bomber needs.
 

zoomar

wiking said:
Instead of the redundant Me210, with its dive bombing silliness, wait until it is first tested to demonstrate whether it can fly before ordering tooling for production. See that it doesn't work in 1939-40 and instead cancel the Bf110 for even more Ju88 production, .
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I really disagree here. The Me-210 was neither redundant not silly. The fact that it was a failure does not show that the concept itself was faulty. A high-speed heavy two-seat fighter with a dive-bombing capability is a very different type of plane than a largish, fastish, multiplace aircraft like the Ju-88. It its "perfected" Me-410 version, the plane was faster, more manuverable, and much more capable of surviving in the face of fighter opposition than the 88. It was the closest thing Germany had to the Mosquito.
 

AdA

For 1942, concentrate bomber production on just two types, the Ju188, with BMW 801, and the He274, with four DB605. Cancel the He177 and all projects based on coupled engines. Why? because by the time they're ready, either the war will be already won or it will already be lost.
When the Ju213 and DB603 are avaiable, introduce Ju213 engined variants of the Ju188 and DB603 engined variants of the He274.
The Ju188 was delayed because of interest on the next Gen 288. It only flew under the 188 name in 1943, but it was being tested as the 88B since 1940.
Given priority, there is no reason why it shouldn't be ready in late 1941.
 

Deleted member 1487

zoomar said:
Wiking, I appreciate your knowledge, but I think you are missing one of my points. The RLM cancelled work on the Ju-88B and delayed introduction of the similar, but somewhat more improved Ju-188 for two reasons. Yes, one reason they did this is that the presumed the Ju-288 would be available by 1943 at the latest, but they also did not want to interrupt Ju-88 production to tool up for the Ju-188 in the interim.
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Yes, they didn't want to tool up for the Ju88B/Ju188 because it was just going to be superceded by the Ju288, so why tool up twice? Which I have to agree with. Until the Ju288 failed there was no reason to disrupt production to phase in the, what was thought to be, obselescent Ju188.

zoomar said:
It hold to my opinion that, had the Ju-88 been the only medium bomber in production, the RLM would be even more conservative regarding introduction of improved Ju-88 bomber models.
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I think they would be no different in their attitude to OTL; they wouldn't authorize the Ju188 tool up, because they are waiting on the Ju288. When it is recognized as a failure they then authorize the Ju188 for tooling, just like IOTL.

zoomar said:
And yes, I also hold that the basic Ju-88 bomber was esentially frozen around the 1939 "A" airframe. Most of the other versions you mention were either heavy fighters, nightfighters, or very specialized recce and recce-bombers. By switching to incremental improvements such as the Ju-88B/188, which could have been in place by late 1941 (setting the stage for further incremental improvements such as the 388 much earlier), the Ju-88 family would have kept pace with developments abroad as well as the Luftwaffe's medium bomber needs.
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The Ju88A4 was introduced in 1941, which changed the wings and added more powerful engines, it also strengthened the airframe and added more hard points for bombs. I think there were also some cockpit changes too.

The problem with the Ju288 was the Jumo222 not working. That killed any chance for improved airframes, as the engines the Germans had were not powerful enough to propel them with the necessary speed to survive in the 1943-4 technical environment. The problem was not the next generation airframes by the end of their development (yes the Ju288 kept having problems with its airframe but AFAIK that was resolved by the time it was cancelled), but rather the lack of high powered engines like the Jumo 222. All of Germany's next generation engines failed in development, leaving Germany with its existing families that had to truck on to the very end.
 

AdA

zoomar said:
I really disagree here. The Me-210 was neither redundant not silly. The fact that it was a failure does not show that the concept itself was faulty. A high-speed heavy two-seat fighter with a dive-bombing capability is a very different type of plane than a largish, fastish, multiplace aircraft like the Ju-88. It its "perfected" Me-410 version, the plane was faster, more manuverable, and much more capable of surviving in the face of fighter opposition than the 88. It was the closest thing Germany had to the Mosquito.
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You're about to be jumped by a squadron of Do335 fans:rolleyes:
 

AdA

Wiking, the engines that failed were the coupled ones. There was nothing wrong with the DB603 and the Jumo213. If the LW had embraced the four proper engines formula for it 6000HP aircraft rather than the two coupled ones, they would have gotten out of a lot of trouble.
The He177 is a clear case. With four DB605, and later with four DB603, it would have been a perfectly decent aircraft that would have been useful.
 
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