Challenge: Earlier Scientific Revolution

I’m coming to the belief that technology in OTL is basically as advance as it can be, which is a reversal of my original view. What makes Western European Culture unique is the Scientific Revolution. I question whether the Industrial Revolution could of happened or of been a revolution without the Scientific Revolution as basis.
What caused the Scientific Revolution and could it of happened in another place or time? I’m thinking the fall of the ancient world, the dark ages of plague, flood and famine, and then the Renaissance allowed knowledge whose origin was at the same time Western Europe’s and not, provided much to be gleaned and at the same time parts to be questioned, from those historic roots supplies material and economic wealth and development allowing capital ventures. The discovery of the “New World” at first demonstrated that not everything was known but new lands and far flung empires are not new. The economic opportunities “out there” provided a model profit motive to scientific observation, instrumentation and predictive theories. The Reformation, the increase of universities, the printing press, multi state system competition all came together to promote the asking of questions and the finical and social backing to research, experiment, invent and theorize and to spread knowledge.
Save the Alexandrian Library, invent the Roman Printing Press or develop the Phaistos Disc into block printing, zap each other with Baghdad batteries (if it was a battery), unleash the super geniuses and wealthy patrons to jumpstart feedback loops to develop the Antikythera mechanism until it’s punch card feed and turing complete. Show me a world significantly more advanced than our own without Macguffining it into bad scifi.
Re-reading this I seem to be on quite a rant against um, myself? Bottom line challenge: an earlier Scientific Revolution
 
I wonder what if someone realised that Hero's toy might have an application in engineering

The problem is that, until pretty much OTL's development of the steam engine, it didn't--the metallurgy of the time just wasn't up to the task of running hot enough or at high enough pressures to efficiently turn heat into motion.

Saving libraries wouldn't necessarily help--consider the OTL Western approach to Greek texts. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle were considered above reproach, simply because their wisdom was ancient. Preserving more flawed ideas from the past might just make European intellectual culture even more set in its ways than it was IOTL.

No, if you want to advance the cause of science, then you need the following:

An intellectual culture aimed at actual science instead of the recitation of Latin and Greek philosophy. Something more along the lines of 17th-18th century Jesuit schools than the monastic educations of OTL.

A mathematical system analogous to Hindu-Arabic Numerals to become widespread at least a few centuries earlier than it did IOTL. (pretty much necessary for advanced algebra and calculus, from which physics forms)

The emergence of a mercantile, literate and numerate class that would provide a source of scientists and engineers.
 
The Forgotten Revolution: How Science Was Born in 300 BC and Why it Had to Be Reborn

Argues that a scientific revolution was just getting under way in the late Hellenistic world, but was extinguished under Roman rule, and largely forgotten since later writers did not understand the theories that were being developed. He includes a large quantity of evidence that the same sorts of thing as happened in sixteenth century Europe, also happened then. I have copied a (quite long) review of the book below:

(review starts)

The collapse of a whole society is nowadays a much prized topic. The environmental questions, the resource scarcity, the nuclear proliferation menace, the demographic explosion and many other `apocalyptic' dangers seem to remind us that every civilization is mortal.

From Gibbon to Tainter and more recently to Jarred Diamond the collapses of ancient societies like Roman or Maya empires were deeply studied. Nobody ever mentioned a similar collapse in Hellenistic times. An author, Lucio Russo, discovered it as scientific fall down. Russo considers that a real scientific revolution took place in Hellenistic times. Then it was forgotten as the science as a method has been abandoned in Antiquity to be only recovered 16 centuries later. In his development Russo describe the details of birth, decline and fall of Hellenistic science and technology in fields as mathematics, mechanics, geodesy, optics, astronomy, anatomy and even psychology. The Hellenistic researchers have obtained some incredible results such as the inverse square law of gravitation. This kind of affirmations may be challenged (and were largely challenged). It is not the point here. We must focus our inquiry on Russo's ground hypothesis and his researching methodology. We think that his approach may offer an interesting matter to future researches.

Timing for the first scientific revolution of the Hellenism

It is now generally accepted that the Hellenistic age started by 323 B.C. (with the death of Alexander the Great) and was finished by 30 BC (with the death of Cleopatra and the annexation of Egypt by Rome). Russo agrees with the starting point of Hellenistic times. But contrary to other historians for him the end of this age was linked to the end of a scientific revolution. according to Russo that happened in the second century B.C. when the scientific studies declined rapidly. The most serious collapse of scientific activity lay in the long wars between Rome and the Hellenistic states, from the plunder of Syracuse and the killing of Archimedes in 212 B.C. to 146 B.C. when Carthage and Corinth were razed to ground. Russo considers that Roman world of the third and second centuries B.C. was much more brutal then that of Virgil and Horace. As a matter of fact the refined culture acquired later by Roman intellectuals was the result of a continuing contact with the Hellenistic civilization, mainly through Greeks taken as slaves and by plundering the Greek works of art.

For Russo Alexandria's scientific activity, in particular, stopped in 145-144 B.C., when the king Ptolemy VIII initiated a policy of brutal persecution against the Greek ruling class.

Arguments in favor of a scientific discontinuity followed by a general decay

The feeling of decay was generally shared in Antiquity. As an example Seneca thought that "... far from advance being made toward the discovery of what the older generations left insufficiently investigated, many of their discoveries are being lost". A certain interruption of the oral transmission made ancient works incomprehensible.

As an example, among others, Russo mentions that Epictetus, regarded at the beginning of the second century A.D. as the "greatest luminary of Stoicism", confessed being unable to understand Chrysippus, his Hellenistic predecessor.

Russo challenges also the common opinion that the Almagest of Ptolemy rendered earlier astronomical treaties obsolete. This vision is inconsistent with an overlooked reality: "whereas astronomy enjoyed an uninterrupted tradition down to Hipparchus (and especially in the period since Eudoxus), the subsequent period lasting almost until Ptolemy's generation witnessed no scientific activity". There was here a deep cultural discontinuity. This break, attested in different other ways, is clearly illustrated by the astronomical observations mentioned in Almagest "... spread over a period of a few centuries, from 720 B.C. to 150 A.D., but leaving a major gap of 218 years: from 126 B.C., the date of the last observation attributed to Hipparchus, to 92 A.D., corresponding to a lunar observation by Agrippa". The author mentions also the relationship between the star catalog of Almagest and the star coordinates of Hipparchus citing the works of Grasshoff which has concluded that, although Ptolemy included in his catalog some coordinates measured by himself, he largely used also the results of Hipparchos of three centuries before.

Partial recovery, reproduction and selection of some scientific results, but with survival of the simplest and not the best

Hellenistic culture survived in a way during the Roman imperial age. The former Hellenistic kingdoms were not assimilated linguistically or culturally and from a technological and economical point of view there was a certain continuity with the preceding period. After the interruption produced by the wars with Rome, the `Pax Romana' permitted a partial recovery of scientific research in the first and second centuries A.D. (in the time of Heron, Ptolemy and Galen). But soon after that the decline was unstoppable. For some centuries "Alexandria remained the center of any scientific activity to be. The last scientist worthy of mention may have been Diophantus, if he really lived in the third century A.D. The activity documented in the fourth century A.D. is limited to compilations, commentaries and rehashing of older works; among the commentators and editors of that time we will be particularly interested in Pappus, whose Collection brings together many mathematical results".

The extent of the destruction of Hellenistic works has usually been underestimated in the past, due to the assumption that it was the best material that survived. Russo challenges this opinion.In fact, "in the face of a general regression in the level of civilization, it's never the best works that will be saved through an automatic process of selection".

Is it the vision of Russo consistent with other actual researches? We may say yes. It is possible to discover a similar discontinuity and decay in the field of the special technologies closely related to science. In this respect Derek de Solla Price considered that "The existence of [...] Antikythera mechanism necessarily changes all our ideas about the nature of Greek high technology. [...] Hero and Vitruvius should be looked upon as chance survivors that may not by any mean be as representative as hitherto assumed". And Price affirm also that "Judging from the texts of Heron, Philon, and Ctesibius ... from the tradition of automatic globes and planetarium made by Archimedes and from the few extant objects (...) we may say that the technology of astronomical automaton underwent a period of intense development. The first major advances seem to have been made by Ctesibius and Archimedes, and the subsequent improvement must have been prodigious indeed. Those facts made possible, in the first century B.C. the Antikythera mechanism with its extraordinary complex astronomical gearing. From this we must suppose that the writings of Heron and Vitruvius preserve for us only a small and incidental portion of the corpus of mechanical skill that existed in Hellenistic and Roman times".

Even among some real scientific works which were preserved by the Byzantines and Arabs, two selection criteria seem to have been at work. "The first was to give preference to authors of the imperial period, whose writings are in general methodologically inferior but easier to use: we have, for example, Heron's work on mirrors, but not the treatise that, according to some testimonies, Archimedes wrote on the same subject. Next, among the works of an author the ones selected are generally the more accessible, and of these often only the initial portions. We have the Greek text of the first four, more elementary, books of Apollonius' Conics, but not the next four (of which three survived in Arabic); we have Latin and Arabic translations of the work of Philo of Byzantium on experiments in pneumatics, but none of his works on theoretical principles".

About the `fossilization of knowledge' as mean for later reconstruction of ancient achievements

The Latin or Greek authors of imperial period are citing the Hellenistic authors without really understanding the ancient scientific methodology. The science became `fossilized', crystallized, a dead fragment from the ancient living organism. Is this vision of a `fossilized science' consistent? We may think yes. We give just an example of such a `fossilized knowledge' transmitted by means of an oral communication withoutproper understanding of its content. In this respect Neugebauer cites the book Kâla Sankalita published in Madras in 1825 by Warren. Warren had traveled extensively in Southern India and had recorded the astronomical teachings of natives for the computation of lunar motions. "His informants no longer had any idea about the reasons for the single steps which they performed according to their rules. The numbers themselves were not written down but were represented by groups of shells placed on the ground. (...)Nevertheless they carried out long computations for the determination of the magnitude, duration, beginning and end of an eclipse with numbers which run into the billions in their integral part and with several (...) places for their fractions. Simultaneously they used memorized tables for the daily motion of the sun and moon involving many thousands of numbers". For Neugebauer is "evident that the methods found by Warren still in existence in the 19th century are the last witness of procedures which go back through the medium of Hellenistic astronomy...".

The fossilized knowledge` is in Russo's opinion the real origin for the recovery of science since XVIth century. And the `fossilized science` is also the ground on which he realized his spectacular reconstructions of several Hellenistic theories. Based on the `fossilized knowledge' of the Hellenistic science Russo starts - and this is his main methodological novelty- a new interpretation of lost original sources. He focused on second hand information spread throughout the literary and not just scientific texts.

Conclusions and possible paths for other researches

1. The actuality of this theory
Such a research seems at a first glance without practical significance. But the final interrogations of Russo concerns us all. The author asks if the decrease of a general and unified scientific theories to some fragmented and `fossilized knowledge' unable to produce new results may occur in the future or is just a matter of ancient past. His answer is definitely affirmative. Russo thinks that that vital substance of scientific knowledge is now a day reserved to smaller and smaller groups of specialists and that may endanger the future survival of science. So knowing what produced the ancient decay may allow us to escape the same destiny.

2.The opening up of other research (some questions and tentative answers)
We may underline a number of other questions raised by the Russo's considerations:
-Which is the specific element that makes the Greek Hellenistic world the first (and the last) scientifically developed society long before the modern world? Can the answer be found in multiple Hellenistic science centers (a plurality of competing Hellenistic kingdoms)?
-How to explain the fragility of Hellenistic achievements? Could it be linked to the small number of scientific, the nonexistence of printing facilities, the spreading of illiterate or the nonexistence of institutions (like the modern scientific academies)?
-Was the Hellenistic science an inevitable passage for the emergence of the modern science? Could the development of today science follow a different path?
-Finally, what role played the scientific decay in the fall of the Western Roman Empire? If the Romans, as successors of the Hellenistic states, lived in a scientifically impoverished society the path to the `Decline and fall of the empire' was unavoidable? We may suppose that a society without a real technological and scientific creativity has a dark future. Was the disappearance of the scientific method the real mortal illness of the Roman Empire? And if so what role will the science play for our own future?

A lot of questions resulting from the book and showing the incredible richness in Russo's work.

(review ends)
 
That's not hard. Butterfly the burning down of the library at Alexandria and import movable type from China.

I don't see you've accomplished anything by either one of those. I’m not trying to be rude so please don’t take it that way, I’m just not seeing what you are saying.
If Caesar decides to specifically protect the Alexandrian Library/Museum and "the blessing of conquers" is bestowed by protecting the Library despite what you do to Alexandria or Egypt and that somehow protects the Library, somehow butterflies away the other burnings then what?
I mean I'd love to read the lost works there but the Library just continues to hoard manuscripts with scholars poking through them and occasionally adding to them. Centuries later Renaissance antiquity scholars go to Egypt? Meanwhile the hard core research and processes that characterize the Scientific Revolution presumably get a little more material to start with or disagree with more or less “on time”.
If the Chinese printing press from c.1000AD is built by a Chinese Ambassador in Europe what does that accomplish? The society has a tiny literate elite. Does anyone have a book budget at this point? Is there even a need for Bureaucratic forms? Do they want coverage of the Norman Conquest and Great Schism, the call for the liberation of the Holy land? Assuming you meant in the Great Library you can “photocopy” the classics and sell them to scholars who have the money? Apart from collecting, cataloging and textual criticism what schools of thought or developments originate specifically from the Alexandrian Library/Museum?
 
instead of focussing on the library of alexandria, it would be better to think of a pod that makes the 'dark' ages much less dark.

essentially preventing a lot of knowledge disappearing.

if certain things do not need to be re-invented, they can continue building on that.
 
Saving libraries wouldn't necessarily help--consider the OTL Western approach to Greek texts. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle were considered above reproach, simply because their wisdom was ancient.

Except they were reproached, all the time.


My first inclination is always to make the Scholastics work together more. There's a short story called Quaestiones Super Caelo et Mundo by Michael Flynn published in Analog 127, which is essentially this. It used to be available online but has been taken down. Also in the same issue was the author going into detail explaining exactly why there could have been a Scientific Revolution in the middle ages.

But to make it even faster you can do what wietze said, and keep more ancient texts around.
 
Good play Mongo,
I’m not fully persuaded that it was a “scientific revolution”, but definitely worth further study.
It does argue well the cosmopolitan nature of ideas and economy with multiple states competing. I’m not sure how to accelerate or expand it (it’s not like dropping a printing press in the Peloponnese or putting out a sign “future site of public research university” would change it all up) but I can see more scientific progress if the Macedonian Wars came out differently (a POD in with a weaker or attention elsewhere Rome, Alexander decides for some reason to go West instead).

As I recall the dark ages, barbarian invasions were coupled with a high number of floods, famines, plauges, warfare and some argue a mini ice age. Many of those factors driving the others in nasty feedback loops. Enormous challenges for civilizations in thier prime.
 
I agree that without the Romans, the late Hellenistic period COULD have reached a scientific revolution. Not sure it would have.

Other people here like the Song Chinese.

The Arabs might have managed it, too.
 
The "Arabs" did it, to a point. Arguably twice.
There was a lot of interest for some of their works, especially but not exclusively medical, in seventeenth century Europe.
I am not sure wht POD could make it stick and fly more, though I'd say that more political stability, slower nomadization, or failed Reconquista, all would help.
In terms of intellectual history, while the general attitude toward Aristotle wasn't one of unquestioning blind faith, a little more of critique of him would be better.
 

Flubber

Banned
I just knew that the Library of Alexandria and aeropile would be mentioned in this thread and I wasn't disappointed... :rolleyes:

Well, I was disappointed but I wasn't disappointed if you know what I mean.
 
It just might have happened in the Islamic world if not for setbacks and a new conservatism in the wake of the Mongol conquest. Possibly in Al-Andalus if not for the pressures of the Reconquista (a dead letter once the very conservative Almoravids and Almohads were invited to Spain as a defense against the Christian kings).
Science in medieval Islam was helped not only for the respect given for and the preservation of the scientific knowledge of the Classical world but for building on those foundations (and importing such revolutions from India as the concept of the zero and algebra). Avicenna, Ibn al-Haytham, and Al-Biruni all contributed insights that were getting closer to what we recognize today as the Scientific Method.
India might be another area, if history were different, for an earlier Scientific Revolution. As would China.

(Look Flubber, no Alexandria and aeropiles.... ;))
 
Dathi THorfinnsson, I like where you're going with the Song. I've enjoyed the Industrial Revolution threads dealing with the Song. Non-starter IMO but gives a lot of perspective on what did happen in Great Brition but, I digress. I will step aside to a Sinophile to elaborate or reel me in here: IIRC there was not a lot of theoretical development and I think a lot of developments were driven by the military.
Herzen's love-child, India? Is there a specific time period? The had so many firsts and ideas that are just amazing for the time period (small pox varillation, dividing seconds in millionths...) but is there a time period of creativity or are we using a sive on the entire history of India?
Falecius, the Arabs. I'll have to look closer and be mindful of my own prejudices.
 
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Flubber

Banned
If the Chinese printing press from c.1000AD is built by a Chinese Ambassador in Europe what does that accomplish? The society has a tiny literate elite. Does anyone have a book budget at this point? Is there even a need for Bureaucratic forms? Do they want coverage of the Norman Conquest and Great Schism, the call for the liberation of the Holy land?


Leaving aside the incredible anachronistic thinking which made you write about a "Chinese ambassador in Europe", you need to remember that Europe in 1000 CE contained a polity we now call the Byzantine Empire.
 

Flubber

Banned
(Look Flubber, no Alexandria and aeropiles.... ;))

Thank you. :)

I simply cannot understand how anyone who has been here for hundreds of posts could seriously bring up the Library of Alexandria and the aeropile. They are the Sealions of the Pre-1900 forum.

The book posted by Mongo looks very interesting and I'm toying with ordering it. That being said, I won't take any claims of a Classical Hellene scientific revolution seriously unless I see some proof of Classical Hellene metrology. You can theorize and perform mathematics all you want but, until you can accurately and consistently measure, you aren't going anywhere.
 
Herzen's love-child, India? Is there a specific time period? The had so many firsts and ideas that are just amazing for the time period (small pox varillation, dividing seconds in millionths...) but is there a time period of creativity or are we using a sive on the entire history of India?

There seems to have been a number of stable arcs of scientific and technological achievement existing within relatively stable polities in India's history. One would be classical Gupta India. Another, late medieval Kerala.
Possibly others...
 
Leaving aside the incredible anachronistic thinking which made you write about a "Chinese ambassador in Europe", you need to remember that Europe in 1000 CE contained a polity we now call the Byzantine Empire.

Thank you for explaining the joke I was making about transplanting a printing press on the other end of Eurasia.
In context I interpreted the ideas to be to accelerate the OTL in Western Europe. However, even in Byzantium as I’ve been saying a printing press no more makes a scientific revolution than a steam engine an industrial revolution.
 

Flubber

Banned
Thank you for explaining the joke I was making...


You weren't making a joke.

... about transplanting a printing press on the other end of Eurasia.

You were opining about how a printing press would have no use in Europe because, as illustrated by this passage:
The society has a tiny literate elite. Does anyone have a book budget at this point? Is there even a need for Bureaucratic forms?, you have no idea that the Eastern Roman Empire had more than a tiny literate elite, had book budgets, and used bureaucratic forms.

The Eastern Roman Empire circa 1000 CE has need of a printing press and would eagerly adopt one.

However, even in Byzantium as I’ve been saying a printing press no more makes a scientific revolution than a steam engine an industrial revolution.

True, but a printing press is one important piece.
 
You weren't making a joke.

The Eastern Roman Empire circa 1000 CE has need of a printing press and would eagerly adopt one.

It is a joke.

For one thing you seem to be ignorant of the complexities of printing.
Guttenberg didn’t just slap some wood cuts on a press and yell “Ta-Da!”. Wood block printing and presses were both in Byzantium in 1000CE. There was a long development between them and the printing press we are familiar with 400 years later.
 
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