WI/AHC USSR has a Working Lunar Mission?

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To start off with. With a lot of other things on my plate, I don't intend to make an ATL out of this, but I give you all this nice Intro, for those who would like to give it a try. :)




03/07/1969

Baikonur Cosmodrone

Kazakhstan



Cosmonauts Alexei Arkhipovich Leonov. Valeri Nikolayevich Kubasov. And Pavel Romanovich Popovich. Sitting on their cramped capsule, barely enough room to move around. Atop of over 4,800 Tonnes of Propellant, Tanks and simple computers.

Several Kilometres away, Designers Vladimir Nikoleavich Chelomei, and Valentin Petrovich Glushko wait. Anxiously waiting as the seconds tick by. For these two, they know that their entire reputations depend on the next 14 days.

The final seconds are called out. The select audience watch well upwind with bated breath.

“<Two! One! Ignition!>”

With these words. Brilliant Blue-White Flame from the nine ground-lit engines emerged. Twenty-Two Thousand, Three-Hundred and Twenty Kilograms of Unsymmetrical Dimethylhydrazine Fuel and DiNitrogen Tetroxide Oxidiser are consumed by the twenty-seven combustion chambers with each and every passing second, as it pushes it’s way upwards. Seconds creak painfully by, as the behemoth clears its Launch Tower, delivering cheers from the many witnesses.

To the casual observer - if there could be one in such a place and time - a collection of cylinders, strapped together were being thrown deep, into the black night sky. To the thousands who worked on it. The culmination of their dreams, their work, their sacrifices. The ultimate goal within reach. So close that some could taste it.

Within the tiny cabin, the three selected were jostled, shaken within their couches. Leonov taking care to not accidentally hit anything, lest the mission suffer from the abort lever being flipped.

140 seconds into the flight. Only visible on the ground thanks to the immense flame plume. A heavy jolt runs through the entire Launch Vehicle, as the total thrust drops by fully two-thirds. A mere second later, audible bangs are heard, as separation bolts are fired, freeing the LV from its spent outer stages. Now nothing more than Dead Weight. As UR-700/L5 takes the Soviets Union’s Final Chance to win the coveted Lunar Race into Low Earth Orbit.


So what do you all think? Would this be a feasible design with respects to the various situations at the time?

The Challenge, of course, being to make it work within the confines of the Intro, of plausibility. And that's it. Have fun! :D
 
Well, just off the top of my head, not using the horribly overcomplex slag heap that was the N1 will help. Of course, the UR-700 is almost as bad in that department, so that might require a workaround. Getting the Soviet rocket scientists to cooperate better might help.

Also, based on the info I'm finding, the UR-700 didn't start actually being designed until 1967, with the first manned launch planned for 1973. So you'd either have to start development earlier, or somehow have the thing go from concept to flight ready in two years.

Or, another possibility is that it's a completely different rocket from the OTL UR-700, which just happened to end up with the same name.
 
Well, just off the top of my head, not using the horribly overcomplex slag heap that was the N1 will help. Of course, the UR-700 is almost as bad in that department, so that might require a workaround. Getting the Soviet rocket scientists to cooperate better might help.

Off the top of my head, the OTL UR-700 got around the worst issues by using more already-used and proven components in its design, and being more conservative in its design overall.


Also, based on the info I'm finding, the UR-700 didn't start actually being designed until 1967, with the first manned launch planned for 1973. So you'd either have to start development earlier, or somehow have the thing go from concept to flight ready in two years.

Or, another possibility is that it's a completely different rocket from the OTL UR-700, which just happened to end up with the same name.

That's the general idea. With sufficient similarities to the OTL design for a working knowledge of it. Based on Chelomei's conclusions to make it work. Basically, earlier design/build go-ahead - say, 1962/64.
 
Given how unreliable the proton was initially, the ur700 would be even worse, more complex, etc.

Could you really effectively start work on the 700 before the 500 (proton) was done?

Given that from a start date of 1968 they didnt expect to fly the 700 until 1973, with a start date of 1965 getting a launch by 1969, especially March, or is that July?, would be very very difficult.
 

Archibald

Banned
Depends if Kutschev stays in power or not in 1964. Chelomey was his favorite designer. It may help.
POD in 1964, but it won't be easy.
But (be warned !) the power struggles between soviet rocket scientists are horrific. Glushko, Korolev / Mishin, Chelomey, Ustinov, Yangel are constantly fighting each others, forging alliances that never last long.

My take: keep Krustchev in power, and "reinforce" Chelomey by displacing or killing Ustinov, which hated him. Put Marschall Grechko at the ministry of defense in 1967, and replace him with Afanasyev (not Ustinov) in April 1976 when Grechko dies of a heart attack.

Glushko may work with Chelomey. By the way, it would be better if the ultra-toxic hypergols of the UR-700 could be replaced by begnin LOX/kerosene.
 
Given how unreliable the proton was initially, the ur700 would be even worse, more complex, etc.

Could you really effectively start work on the 700 before the 500 (proton) was done?

Given that from a start date of 1968 they didnt expect to fly the 700 until 1973, with a start date of 1965 getting a launch by 1969, especially March, or is that July?, would be very very difficult.

the UR-700 had to be build from UR-500 (Proton) Parts.
the Main engine RD-270 had problems in delay in R&D
but could in theory could be replace by 4 x RD-253 engine from proton.
But with almost 4000 tons of N2O4/UDMH, it would be the biggest toxic "accident" in history if that monster rocket fails

On timetable in order that UR-700 works in 1968
the Lunar program has to start much earlier.
one Possibility that Sergei Korolev died of heart attack in 1962.
what give Vladimir Chelomey free way to start with UR-500 and UR-700 program and manned lunar spacecraft.
 
Given how unreliable the proton was initially, the ur700 would be even worse, more complex, etc.

Could you really effectively start work on the 700 before the 500 (proton) was done?

Given that from a start date of 1968 they didnt expect to fly the 700 until 1973, with a start date of 1965 getting a launch by 1969, especially March, or is that July?, would be very very difficult.

True, the UR-500 had a horrendous record during its early flights, primarily due to Crash Development of the 3/4 stage versions. But it wasn't that much more complex - especially compared to the N-1.

Proton parts were intended to be used in the UR-700 development, so technically, they'd be developed at the same time depending on your point of view.

Start it in 1961-1963 to get the time needed, by having the Soviet Leadership take Kennedy's challenge seriously, is one way to do it.


Depends if Kutschev stays in power or not in 1964. Chelomey was his favorite designer. It may help.
POD in 1964, but it won't be easy.
But (be warned !) the power struggles between soviet rocket scientists are horrific. Glushko, Korolev / Mishin, Chelomey, Ustinov, Yangel are constantly fighting each others, forging alliances that never last long.

My take: keep Krustchev in power, and "reinforce" Chelomey by displacing or killing Ustinov, which hated him. Put Marschall Grechko at the ministry of defense in 1967, and replace him with Afanasyev (not Ustinov) in April 1976 when Grechko dies of a heart attack.

Glushko may work with Chelomey. By the way, it would be better if the ultra-toxic hypergols of the UR-700 could be replaced by begnin LOX/kerosene.

In the 1960s, Chelomei and Glushko were willing to work with each other, they could hold it together for longer if it was in their mutual interest to do so.

Don't forget that Glushko greatly preferred Hypergolic Propellants, and Chelomei was more willing to use them. Concluding that improvements - propellant wise - could come later IIRC.
 
the UR-700 had to be build from UR-500 (Proton) Parts.
the Main engine RD-270 had problems in delay in R&D
but could in theory could be replace by 4 x RD-253 engine from proton.
But with almost 4000 tons of N2O4/UDMH, it would be the biggest toxic "accident" in history if that monster rocket fails

On timetable in order that UR-700 works in 1968
the Lunar program has to start much earlier.
one Possibility that Sergei Korolev died of heart attack in 1962.
what give Vladimir Chelomey free way to start with UR-500 and UR-700 program and manned lunar spacecraft.

Alternatively, do a RD-170 with the RD-270. That is, split the thrust from one engine into 4 separate combustion chambers. But the POD is one that could work.

But yeah, they'd have to be certain that it would work, otherwise that place is gonna be a dead-zone for some time.
 

Archibald

Banned
In Energia-Buran Bart Hendrix briefly mentions a RD-116 as essentially a LOX/kerosene variant of RD-270 by Glushko.
 
What would the implications of this be? Would the Americans just cut losses and drop the Apollo Program? Or would they still try to win the race, by changing the goalposts? (as in saying "landing on the moon is but the first step of the race, the true goal is to stablish a permanent human presence on our satellite").
 
What would the implications of this be? Would the Americans just cut losses and drop the Apollo Program? Or would they still try to win the race, by changing the goalposts? (as in saying "landing on the moon is but the first step of the race, the true goal is to stablish a permanent human presence on our satellite").

the space race had go on !
a Soviet lunar mission during Apollo, had show that they also capable to like USA
and Nixon or Humphrey as President have to take a bigger for Space Race: Mars

Back to rocket engines
Korolev and Glushko were in dispute over engine for N1 in beginn 1960's
(Korolev hated Glusko, because he had betray and denounced Korolev in 1930, who spend years in Soviet gulag)
Glushko was ready to make compromises and build Modular LOX/Kerosene Engine blocks for N-1
but this was prevented by an intriguers employee of Korolev: Vasily Mishin
so Koroley take Kuznetsov for NK-15, a company with no experience with rocket engines !
to make things from bad to worse
after Koroley death, Vasily Mishin became his successor !!!
he turn the Soviet lunar program into a madhouse...
 
Suppose, hypothetically, that Glushko doesn't betray Korolev, and that Korolev doesn't go to the gulag. That might allow for cooperation between Glushko and Korolev, which would mitigate some of the N1s issues. Also, it might keep Korolev alive longer, since he developed quite a few health problems while in the gulag.
 
What would the implications of this be? Would the Americans just cut losses and drop the Apollo Program? Or would they still try to win the race, by changing the goalposts? (as in saying "landing on the moon is but the first step of the race, the true goal is to stablish a permanent human presence on our satellite").

NASA did have some Apollo follow-ons, though they never really got of the design board IOTL - except for Skylab. Some could be usable to one-up the USSR. Depends on the budget, and the willingness of Congress to make it happen.


the space race had go on !
a Soviet lunar mission during Apollo, had show that they also capable to like USA
and Nixon or Humphrey as President have to take a bigger for Space Race: Mars

Back to rocket engines
Korolev and Glushko were in dispute over engine for N1 in beginn 1960's
(Korolev hated Glusko, because he had betray and denounced Korolev in 1930, who spend years in Soviet gulag)
Glushko was ready to make compromises and build Modular LOX/Kerosene Engine blocks for N-1
but this was prevented by an intriguers employee of Korolev: Vasily Mishin
so Koroley take Kuznetsov for NK-15, a company with no experience with rocket engines !
to make things from bad to worse
after Koroley death, Vasily Mishin became his successor !!!
he turn the Soviet lunar program into a madhouse...

Actually Van, despite Kuznetsov's inexperience with Rocket Engines, he did understand the principles of them. It was a budget and time issue that meant the NK-15s couldn't be properly developed in time. Once he was able to perfect them, they did become fantastic engines which even today, are still considered to be extremely advanced.


Suppose, hypothetically, that Glushko doesn't betray Korolev, and that Korolev doesn't go to the gulag. That might allow for cooperation between Glushko and Korolev, which would mitigate some of the N1s issues. Also, it might keep Korolev alive longer, since he developed quite a few health problems while in the gulag.

Check the OP. This is a Chelomei/Glushko cooperative effort. And since Chelomei was willing to use N2O4/UMDH engines - which Glushko had managed to develop effectively by the 1960s - they'd be willing to do so.


One thing everyone seems to have missed out on. I only said if they had a working Manned Lunar Programme. I never said if this particular one in the OP is the one that takes them there, or succeeds in doing so.
 
i love to make a TL
but i stuck with Energia and space shuttle TL Ronald Reagan's Space Exploration Initiative
i finish that first...

Bahamut-255 said:
Actually Van, despite Kuznetsov's inexperience with Rocket Engines, he did understand the principles of them. It was a budget and time issue that meant the NK-15s couldn't be properly developed in time. Once he was able to perfect them, they did become fantastic engines which even today, are still considered to be extremely advanced.

that became the lengdary NK-33 engine. :cool:
 

Curiousone

Banned
Given how unreliable the proton was initially, the ur700 would be even worse, more complex, etc.

Could you really effectively start work on the 700 before the 500 (proton) was done?

Given that from a start date of 1968 they didnt expect to fly the 700 until 1973, with a start date of 1965 getting a launch by 1969, especially March, or is that July?, would be very very difficult.

The UR500 & UR700 were proposed in 1962.
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ur700m.htm
It was only the UR500 that got funding.

The 'start date' of 67/68 that's been quoted is just when they started getting into trouble with the N1, wanted a back-up. If they funded the UR700 from the start..

we'll never know:(.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Die zombie, DIE! with Iron, Blood and Salt I return thee to the grave to rise no more!
 
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