How Long can a Segregated Society Last?

[Emperor Norton I]

In the United States, segregation lasted over a century, from the Civil War up until Civil Rights, with the ideal being separate but equal. Of course things were not equal in this separation, and racism towards, and oppression and abuse of the black communities was common. But a segregated America, one half black and one half white, just became the accepted way things were even if people didn't like it, and infrastructure had been built up of two separate Americas side by side. There were black neighborhoods with black stores and restaurants and theaters and shop keepers and entertainers, etc, there were black sports teams and military units, etc.
After WW2, that gave way to Civil Rights and the process towards integration and equality.

So in America, how long can a segregated society last, and what would be the effects of a longer existing segregation?

[Colin]

One could argue that in India a partial segregation through the cast system has been operative for thousands of years.

[black angel]

depends on the PODs but you really could do it forever, and even today we are two nations in many ways, kept apart not by laws but by custom, less than in 1950 of course but still

[John Fredrick Parker]

I've asked before if no WWII would give is this...

[mikegold]

Originally Posted by black angel

depends on the PODs but you really could do it forever, and even today we are two nations in many ways, kept apart not by laws but by custom, less than in 1950 of course but still

You're addressing the distinction between segregation de jure and de facto. Reviewing the OP, I'm not entirely certain which was intended.

Segregation de facto, to one extent or another, of course could proceed far into the future, depending on the evolution of social and cultural conditions.

Segregation de jure, OTOH, is almost completely extinct in the US. Off the top of my head, the only exception that springs to mind is prison populations divided by race for safety reasons.

Now, de-segregation is not judicially enforced integration, and that and "positive-discrimination" or affirmative action in school admissions and hirings bring their own interesting questions.

I think, though, that the OP was getting at the maintenance of segregation de jure, per se - that is, the legally enforced actual separation of the races in various theaters of life. That's the most interesting AH question, IMHO.

Assuming a post-WWII POD, it can't possibly be delayed much longer than OTL, I'd say. (Even with a worse Red Scare and Vietnam avoided, it's still the biggest social project in the works by the end of the War, and the Boomers are going to come of age).

[Emperor Norton I]

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

I've asked before if no WWII would give is this...

I've always questioned how much WW2 really had to do with it all. After all, blacks had already returned from wars to be abused and mistreated, as well as being treated with the same indignity they were used to on a daily basis. And there was a WWI before a World War 2 in which they fought and returned to segregation (and I recall a story of a returning veteran being lynched).

[The B]

Some people would argue that men and women are still segregated. Slightly over-reactive people, albeit.

[AdA]

It's still in existence in Israel, we're the Palestinian population is segregated from the jewish population...

[BigWillyG]

Originally Posted by AdA

It's still in existence in Israel, we're the Palestinian population is segregated from the jewish population...

Does it count when the two populations consider each other to be different nationalities?

[AdA]

Originally Posted by BigWillyG

Does it count when the two populations consider each other to be different nationalities?

In my book, yes. If you draw a border and plant a flag, they're your people. I was, of course, talking about palestinians still living in Israel proper. The ones in Gaza and the west bank feel surrounded rather then segregated.

[Luath]

In my opinion, American Segregation was living on borrowed time by 1965, as soon as WWII hits you might as well start measuring it for a coffin.

[John Fredrick Parker]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

I've always questioned how much WW2 really had to do with it all. After all, blacks had already returned from wars to be abused and mistreated, as well as being treated with the same indignity they were used to on a daily basis. And there was a WWI before a World War 2 in which they fought and returned to segregation (and I recall a story of a returning veteran being lynched).

It wasn't just African American wartime service though -- the defense industry, before becoming a huge part of the American economy, was desegregated by Executive Order (which was important not just for putting whites and blacks in contact, but also just putting so many of the latter on payrolls at all); the war saw, FWIH, the most significant crackdown on convict labor in US history; there was the major cultural effect of going to war against, and learning to hate, a destructive regime based on the supremacy of a particular (white) race; and, of course, there was the subsequent Cold War, wherein US policymakers came to place great importance on how the world (including the non-white post-colonial world) saw the United States.

So whether it was necessary for desegregation, or whether segregation could have gone on indefinitely in its absence, the fact remains that in OTL it played a crucial role in Jim Crow's demise...

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

Originally Posted by The B

Some people would argue that men and women are still segregated. Slightly over-reactive people, albeit.

Well, we do have to use separate restrooms in most places.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

In the United States, segregation lasted over a century, from the Civil War up until Civil Rights, with the ideal being separate but equal. Of course things were not equal in this separation, and racism towards, and oppression and abuse of the black communities was common. But a segregated America, one half black and one half white, just became the accepted way things were even if people didn't like it, and infrastructure had been built up of two separate Americas side by side. There were black neighborhoods with black stores and restaurants and theaters and shop keepers and entertainers, etc, there were black sports teams and military units, etc.
After WW2, that gave way to Civil Rights and the process towards integration and equality.

So in America, how long can a segregated society last, and what would be the effects of a longer existing segregation?

Depends on how bad things get. TBH, one of the reasons segregation lasted so long in many parts of America was because while it was tragic, it never quite got to the South African level in terms of outright violent repression, etc.

[Plumber]

In theory, forever. This is after 1900 though. With a POD in the first decade of the 1900s, I can see it being in place until the present day.

If you want to do post-WWII, which is harder, have LBJ lose to Coke Stevenson, and it'll go on a lot longer than anyone would like to admit. A POD this late has a good opportunity to end up as the American Troubles.

[Apollo 20]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

I've always questioned how much WW2 really had to do with it all. After all, blacks had already returned from wars to be abused and mistreated, as well as being treated with the same indignity they were used to on a daily basis. And there was a WWI before a World War 2 in which they fought and returned to segregation (and I recall a story of a returning veteran being lynched).

Postwar mistreatment of black veterans affected Truman's thinking on the issue and were partially responsible for his decision to desegregate the armed forces in 1948.

In general:

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistle...sons/dseg.html

Truman letter requesting that the Attorney General investigate reports of mistreatment:

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistle...ons/clark.html

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by Emperor Norton I

I've always questioned how much WW2 really had to do with it all. After all, blacks had already returned from wars to be abused and mistreated, as well as being treated with the same indignity they were used to on a daily basis. And there was a WWI before a World War 2 in which they fought and returned to segregation (and I recall a story of a returning veteran being lynched).

Yes, but they weren't nearly as powerful or important a group during those wars. In World War II, you had blacks becoming a major urban factor, and they played huge roles in the defense industry. Detroit was a prime example of this, as were the dozens of wartime race riots. This is not the Red Summer of 1919 or Tulsa '21--blacks cannot be ignored any longer. They will riot, they will rebel, they will make their grievances known until there is change or conflict.

Too, black-dominated trade unions were making themselves felt during the war. FDR flipped when A. Philip Randolph threatened to lead the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters and other black labor federations in a march on Washington (unsurprisingly, Randolph played a major role in the march twenty years later). There was also a great deal of negotiation and politicking over blacks in the defense industry and getting housing.

[M. Adolphe Thiers]

So what's the conditions? Segregation at all cost, or until it becomes unfeasible without drastically altering society? If the latter, then I don't see segregation lasting after the 1970s at most, much of the groundwork was already laid out.

If you are allowing for the US to devolve into South African style apartheid, then it will probably last as long as South Africa does since a lot of Western states will distance themselves from this increasingly militarized authoritarian US.

[Wolfpaw]

If you make it so that segregation is considered to be a state (rather than Federal) issue, it can last longer.

Keeping blacks a rural, mostly Deep Southern population will also prolong it; it was, after all, World War II that accelerated the flow of blacks to Northern and Western cities that far surpassed the first of the Great Migrations.

[FreezingShock]

I think post 1900 is too late to get it to last for a very long time, though that might be partially wishful thinking. You could still get it to last a while longer by using a bunch of small PODs which work together to achieve the desired result, but I doubt you're going to get it to last significantly longer. A pre 1900 POD, on the other hand, could probably get you some very, very long lasting segregation. I wouldn't say forever - nothing lasts forever. But longer than I care to imagine.