Is there a way, with a PoD after the end of the SCW (obviously), to get Spain to join the Allies before or in 1944 (so no Argentina-style bullshit)?
PC: Allied Nationalist Spain
- Thread starter My Username is Inigo Montoya
- Start date
Hitler gets pissed off with Franco in 1940 after the fall of France and just decides they're next. He wants Gibraltar taken out, and he ain't going to pussy foot around. The SU can wait till 1942.
Spain joins the Allies after being attacked.
Not very likely I know, but it's all I've got.
Anticlimacus
Banned
The British are more desperate (or persuasive) and keep Franco from sending the Blue Division to the USSR.
After the massacre of the Spanish colony in Manila, Franco is enraged and declares war on Japan. An Spanish naval blue division (with a marine unit) is sent to the Pacific to fight by US forces.
After the massacre of the Spanish colony in Manila, Franco is enraged and declares war on Japan. An Spanish naval blue division (with a marine unit) is sent to the Pacific to fight by US forces.
Goldstein made such a PoD:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=241972
IOTL, Franco attempted to ingratiate himself with the Allies (correctly foreseeing that they would win, and that after the vicory they would enter in a war against the USSR) by means of the "theory of the three wars" which would explain what the WWII was really:
-one of the western world against the communism, where Spain stood belligerent against communism (this would be the eastern front),
-a second war between the western powers, on which Spain declared its neutrality, although expressing a certain sympathy for the Americans (western front),
-finally a war between the civilization and the aggresive heathen barbarism of the Japanese, on which Spain stood decisively on the side of the Allies (Pacific theater).
In Goldstein's TL, Franco takes a step beyond the mere statements and in 1943 he unilaterally declares war on Japan and disbands the Blue Division. In 1944 he attains a degree of cooperation with the US army and organizes a new force of volunteers to send to the war in the Pacific.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=241972
IOTL, Franco attempted to ingratiate himself with the Allies (correctly foreseeing that they would win, and that after the vicory they would enter in a war against the USSR) by means of the "theory of the three wars" which would explain what the WWII was really:
-one of the western world against the communism, where Spain stood belligerent against communism (this would be the eastern front),
-a second war between the western powers, on which Spain declared its neutrality, although expressing a certain sympathy for the Americans (western front),
-finally a war between the civilization and the aggresive heathen barbarism of the Japanese, on which Spain stood decisively on the side of the Allies (Pacific theater).
In Goldstein's TL, Franco takes a step beyond the mere statements and in 1943 he unilaterally declares war on Japan and disbands the Blue Division. In 1944 he attains a degree of cooperation with the US army and organizes a new force of volunteers to send to the war in the Pacific.
Interesting, thanks for sharing
Pity it died...I realise I should have been more specific in my first post: what I meant was that Spain should be at war with Germany.
What about some sort of Peninsular War scenario? Keep Portugal a staunch British ally and have them enter the war against Germany. Germany wishes to attack Portugal to defeat Britain's last ally in Europe. Franco refuses to let German troops go through Spain to do this as he wants to stay neutral. Hitler just invades Spain as well as Portugal and drives the Spanish into the arms of the Allies.
This is the major problem with the Spain entering on the Axis. The Spanish wanted to enter the war. ASAP. Hitler didn't want Spain in the war because the he knew the Germans were going to end up fighting the war for them.
Sorry but I don't think that hardly any Spanish including Franco who had just finished 3 years of civil war had any real interest in the war. Also Spain did very well as a neutral in WWI. The only way I could see this is a very late declaration of war in say Feb 1945.
EDIT
Sorry just seen the OP. The only way I could see a 1944 intervention would be if US/UK decided that Overlord was still very risky and pursuaded Franco to join them for the payment of large amounts of gold. Politically this would be almost impossible at this stage of the war.
Well yeah, after the Spanish Civil War, I doubt Franco is going to declare war on Germany when there's a good chance Spain will be the front line.
Maybe late 1944? Say Germany provokes Spain by seizing their assets in Germany (no idea how many there were), or Franco wishes to fight Japan, America agrees to help arm Spain but only if they declare war on Hitler as well.
Really "that Argentina bullshit (or Turkish/Ecuadorian/Chilean bullshit for that matter)" is most likely.
Plus side for Spain is they get Marshall Aid and are in on the ground floor for NATO and the EU.
Maybe late 1944? Say Germany provokes Spain by seizing their assets in Germany (no idea how many there were), or Franco wishes to fight Japan, America agrees to help arm Spain but only if they declare war on Hitler as well.
Really "that Argentina bullshit (or Turkish/Ecuadorian/Chilean bullshit for that matter)" is most likely.
Plus side for Spain is they get Marshall Aid and are in on the ground floor for NATO and the EU.
Cook
Banned
This isn’t really very advantageous; the limited number of crossings of the Pyrenees, combined with the poor state of Spain’s rail system mean that you’re contemplating Monte Casino again. Once through the Pyrenees you are into the South of France; the same place you would have been if you’d chosen just to directly invade with the forces already in the Mediterranean and a long way from the borders of the Reich and Antwerp. And you are not only reliant on a struggling rail network for your supplies, but a rail network that is of a different gauge to the French rail network, meaning significantly more delays in moving supplies and men beyond the Pyrenees. In 1943, this would be a marginal but contemplate-able scenario, but in 1994? No not really.
The only way I could imagine Franco entering the war on the allied side would be if the Germans invaded Spain in early 1943 to close the straits of Gibraltar following the Torch landings.
That would be a quagmire as numerous armies in history have found. Attacking Spain is a pain in the arse, the mountains and the terrain are a bitch. However... This is Hitler...
Something interesting that I thought about this: if Spain joins the war on the Allied side, what do the Maquis do? Do they cozy up to the Nazis?
Just tried googling but most of the results are on spinal operations, or are in Spanish and nothing is on wikipedia, what was this about?
EDIT: Found this "Operation Backbone & Backbone II (1942 & 1943) — contingency plans to occupy Spanish Morocco and area around Gibraltar if Germans entered Spain." This is the most I could find :/
Cook
Banned
I have only the briefest of descriptions, Backbone entailed allied occupation of Spanish Morocco and Southern Spain near the Straits and Gibraltar. The otherwise unnecessary Torch landings in French Morocco were because of the potential of the Germans trying to close the straits. Since the British didn’t like the landings in Morocco and would have preferred landings in Tunisia instead I think we have to assume that it was something that concerned the Americans more than the British.
I also remember Churchill suggesting an invasion via the Iberian Peninsula that was knocked back by cabinet and Brooke, I don’t think it even went as far as being examined for its requirements. That would have brought Franco in on the Axis side though presumably.