When did Native Americans adopt iron working?

[Faeelin]

So, I've come across a few references to Native Americans having gunsmiths who could repair firearms during King Phillip's war. And, in the 19th century, I've seen references to Cherokee blacksmiths.

But I haven't seen anything about how and when Native Americans started adopting these skills, and where they were getting metal from.

Does anyone know?

[Admiral Matt]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

So, I've come across a few references to Native Americans having gunsmiths who could repair firearms during King Phillip's war. And, in the 19th century, I've seen references to Cherokee blacksmiths.

But I haven't seen anything about how and when Native Americans started adopting these skills, and where they were getting metal from.

Does anyone know?

I've forgotten most of what I know, and that was mostly about the Iroquois.

That said.... They started it up very, very early, but only in a qualified sense. The early Iroquois smiths were all reshaping trade or loot metal, not producing any of their own. I believe they did finally get to production, but IIRC it was very late.

[Faeelin]

Interesting; do you know where you found that?

[Gimple]

Not what you're looking for but was trying to refresh my memory of Native blacksmiths when I came across this gem which I forgot about years ago and still a point of interest for those who are interested in Native Americans taking to Western trades.

Mohawk Ironworkers

Other then that Wikipedia mentions that Inuit were working iron off of meteors and here is google books which mentions that the Brits had a tight reign on what blacksmiths were allowed to do in the Americas and that most Iron was sent to England to be made into equipment to be sold back to the Americas at inflated prices. One of the few items that was very popular to be created was the Tomahawk Pipe.
http://www.prickettsfort.org/Resourc...%20Century.pdf

[Lord Grattan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_Michigan

Native Americans were the first to mine and work the copper of Lake Superior and the Keweenaw Peninsula of northern Michigan between 5000 BCE and 1200 BCE. The natives used this copper to produce tools. Archaeological expeditions in the Keweenaw Peninsula and Isle Royale revealed the existence of copper producing pits and hammering stones which were used to work the copper. By the time the first European explorers arrived, the area was the home of the Chippewa people, who did not mine copper. According to Chippewa traditions, they had much earlier supplanted the original miners. The first written account of copper in Michigan was given by French missionary Claude Allouez in 1667. He noted that Indians of the Lake Superior region prized copper nuggets that they found there.

[Dave Howery]

Native Americans were the first to mine and work the copper of Lake Superior and the Keweenaw Peninsula of northern Michigan between 5000 BCE and 1200 BCE. The natives used this copper to produce tools. Archaeological expeditions in the Keweenaw Peninsula and Isle Royale revealed the existence of copper producing pits and hammering stones which were used to work the copper. By the time the first European explorers arrived, the area was the home of the Chippewa people, who did not mine copper. According to Chippewa traditions, they had much earlier supplanted the original miners. The first written account of copper in Michigan was given by French missionary Claude Allouez in 1667. He noted that Indians of the Lake Superior region prized copper nuggets that they found there.

okay, that's odd... why would a craft that produced superior tools give way to one that didn't, and apparently die out as well?

[Hoist40]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

okay, that's odd... why would a craft that produced superior tools give way to one that didn't, and apparently die out as well?

A lot of early metal working throughout the world started with the use of very pure natural deposits. This involved finding surface deposits of nearly pure metal and then hammering it into useful shapes.

However not every culture moved onto the next steps of mining and smelting the metals from less pure sources. From what I understand Lake Superior area had very pure deposits of copper near or on the surface and so it was worked. But once the easily found deposits were used up they did not have the technology or economy to support the next step.

[Gimple]

Originally Posted by Hoist40

A lot of early metal working throughout the world started with the use of very pure natural deposits. This involved finding surface deposits of nearly pure metal and then hammering it into useful shapes.

However not every culture moved onto the next steps of mining and smelting the metals from less pure sources. From what I understand Lake Superior area had very pure deposits of copper near or on the surface and so it was worked. But once the easily found deposits were used up they did not have the technology or economy to support the next step.

Also add to that that stone cutters and stone work tech in general in the new world went way beyond their European counterparts, especially in Mezo American and Andean civilizations. Metal tech in comparison in the Pre Columbian Americas stayed underdeveloped even in comparison to their more industrially primitive sub Saharan African counterparts. Before Columbus the only iron work that happened on this continent was in some coastal parts of Mezo America and some Inuit.

[othyrsyde]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

okay, that's odd... why would a craft that produced superior tools give way to one that didn't, and apparently die out as well?

Because it was easier to trade pelts for already manufactured European goods. One of the main reasons the Ojibway were able to defeat the Dakota were because they had a plentiful supply of steel weapons and muskets.

[Lyly]

Originally Posted by othyrsyde

Because it was easier to trade pelts for already manufactured European goods. One of the main reasons the Ojibway were able to defeat the Dakota were because they had a plentiful supply of steel weapons and muskets.

In 1200 BCE?

[othyrsyde]

Originally Posted by Lyly

In 1200 BCE?

The Ojibway didn't move to the Lake Superior region well into early modern period. They were mentioned displacing the tribes that lived there before, which did not occur in 1200 BCE.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

okay, that's odd... why would a craft that produced superior tools give way to one that didn't, and apparently die out as well?

Partly because of the limited availability of pure copper nuggets, as pointed out already. Partly because copper really isnt that great for tools.

What is popularly called the copper age in the old world is technically called the Chalcolithic, as it still used stone tools for a good many things.

Its not really until you get to the bronze age that stone tools are clearly inferior.

[Admiral Matt]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Interesting; do you know where you found that?

I think that was an enormously over-researched high school paper. I really dug in to an entirely unnecessary extent, given that I undercut my grade by going off-topic into Iroquoian technological use and politics. It certainly wasn't after 2003 that I read it. All I can really suggest is a google books search, I'm afraid.

If it was the same book I'm remembering, there was a fair section on the Cherokee and Dragging Canoe, but I may be conflating things.

[Faeelin]

Interestingly, blacksmiths were part of Iroquois diplomacy as late as the 1770s.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vO-...ksmith&f=false

[Sucrose]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

okay, that's odd... why would a craft that produced superior tools give way to one that didn't, and apparently die out as well?

Pure copper is too soft to be really good for much besides decoration. A stone spear or axe would be much more deadly.

I've heard one theory that Amerindians never developed a bronze age because while tin is extremely scarce everywhere in comparison to copper, in the Americas it was even more scarce than in Europe. Plus bronze was probably first invented by accident when copper veins contaminated with tin or arsenic were worked, which would mean such an event would be much less likely to happen in the Americas.

[Falecius]

Originally Posted by Sucrose

Pure copper is too soft to be really good for much besides decoration. A stone spear or axe would be much more deadly.

I've heard one theory that Amerindians never developed a bronze age because while tin is extremely scarce everywhere in comparison to copper, in the Americas it was even more scarce than in Europe. Plus bronze was probably first invented by accident when copper veins contaminated with tin or arsenic were worked, which would mean such an event would be much less likely to happen in the Americas.

OTOH, bronze was apparently invented independently at least three times in Eurasia (Middle East and China for tin bronze, India for arsenic bronze) and once in the Andes (the Incans had it, I think with tin) so it may be not so terribly difficult to arrive at.

[Faeelin]

Interestingly, the Pueblo Indians do appear to have learned blacksmithing from Jesuit missionaries.

Hrm.

Does this make iron diffusion in a surviving Vinland look more difficult than it appears?

[Admiral Matt]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Interestingly, the Pueblo Indians do appear to have learned blacksmithing from Jesuit missionaries.

Hrm.

Does this make iron diffusion in a surviving Vinland look more difficult than it appears?

I suspect so. More than the usual depiction I'd expect reworking of trade metal as an high-value trade good and a fashion in hardened wooden swords. At least in the beginning.

[zoomar]

I'd hazard not before 1800 in America north of Mexico (with the possible exception of the Pueblo). Most native artisans referred to as "blacksmiths" in earlier European accounts were usually people who took finished European iron and steel items such as knives, spoons, and metal flint-lock gun parts and re-used them in native contexts as cutting tools or to repair metal items they already obtained thru trade. The complete art of mining, smelting, and forging of iron alloys was never adopted by American Natives until they were essentially acculturated and living like Europeans (such as the Cherokee).

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by zoomar

I'd hazard not before 1800 in America north of Mexico (with the possible exception of the Pueblo). Most native artisans referred to as "blacksmiths" in earlier European accounts were usually people who took finished European iron and steel items such as knives, spoons, and metal flint-lock gun parts and re-used them in native contexts as cutting tools or to repair metal items they already obtained thru trade. The complete art of mining, smelting, and forging of iron alloys was never adopted by American Natives until they were essentially acculturated and living like Europeans (such as the Cherokee).

To be fair, few village blacksmiths in Europe forged their own metal from raw ore, did they?