AH: Prevent US Expansion West of the Mississippi

Your challenge is to create a scenario that would prevent the US from expanding west of the Mississippi. Your only restrictions are that the POD should be after 1776 (No Effecting the Revolution itself) and US territory east of the Mississippi should not be broken up, in other words the brown states labeled "Territory of the Original Thirteen States" needs to remain with the US.

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Anaxagoras

Banned
Negotiations for Louisiana Purchase fail and Britain takes the territory when war breaks out with Napoleon again.
 
The US will get it. It's just going to happen. Settlers will move west, territory will be contested, there will be wars, and the US will get it. Unless there is concerted effort from a majority of the European powers working together, the US will get that land.
 
The US will get it. It's just going to happen. Settlers will move west, territory will be contested, there will be wars, and the US will get it. Unless there is concerted effort from a majority of the European powers working together, the US will get that land.


I understand that reasoning, thats why its a challenge but I dont think its impossible, perhaps something could prevent settlers from moving out West? It wasnt as if the US could hold its own agaisnt european powers back in the day, doubt it would take a majoriy of them to keep the US from expanding. It's also not just about the US having the means to expand its about the willingness. What if a US ally had gotten ahold of OTL louisianna? If say France hadnt boiled over in revolution, aquired the territory, and remained a partner of the US but was unwilling to sell the territory, in such a senario I dont think the US would risk war with an ally to simply grab land.
 
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I think Mexico could hold its own against the USA in this scenario. Immigration would obviously be a huge problem for Mexico/France/Britain. If Mexico was a British ally I doubt the US would want to cause a war over it. So give it to Mexico put Mexico in the British camp. If war does break out just have Britain trounce them from the north, west and by the sea.

That or a continuation of the Articles of Confederation. That would make expansion espicially difficult.
 
Well, from what I learned (both here and in class) the early Americans loved to push into land that wasn't theirs.

This happened leading up to the revolution, then it happened with Texas, its how Northwest terrirtory was settled......

With that late a POD, I don't see this happening.
A major American dream that most anyone could get was acquiring land. When that land runs out you move west.
People will push over that border eventually.
Whether any European power (or Mexico) has the Louisiana territory I don't think they could prevent American settlers from moving over in drones.

I do understand that the US didn't have the military in the beginning, but when needed the US would build up.
During the Whisky rebellion Washington managed to grab a lot of VOLUNTEER troops to make the farmers pay their taxes. Imagine if Mexicans/Brits/French were attacking their countrymen across the Mississippi.

An easy way to do this would be (as stated before) balkanize the US.
That would ruin your POD though.
 
Mexican Lousiana probably is unsustainable, but I don't know about British Louisiana. Why not just move to British Louisiana and become British citizens? The folks are white and speak english, and until 1833 they'll even let you keep your slaves. The notion that "US will unite to take Louisiana from the British because they want it to be AMERICAN" seems anachronistic. Remember, at the time people were more Virginians, New Yorkers, Pensylvanians, etc. than they were Americans: Texas was originally independent and might have stayed that way if it weren't for the fact that their local government couldn't afford a pot to piss into.

If the British govern with a light hand, they will get a lot of people perfectly happy to become Louisianans. The notion that every American who crosses the Mississippi is a vote for Louisiana to become part of the US is probably incorrect: a lot of Americans in the war of 1812 thought every Canadian originally from the states would rise in their favor, and it just weren't so. And notherners, for instance, will not happy volunteer to fight so that Southerners can preserve the rights of their relatives west of the Mississippi to keep slaves (a likely cause of settler discontent with their British overlords).

Bruce

PS - edit: if, OTOH, the UK goverment has its own panic about American filibusters and actively tries to keep US settlers, legal or otherwise, out, then things are likely to get hairy early on.
 
Well, from what I learned (both here and in class) the early Americans loved to push into land that wasn't theirs.

This happened leading up to the revolution, then it happened with Texas, its how Northwest terrirtory was settled......

I understand the nature of American settling but the Northwest Territory was technically US land despite is population of native groups, nobody was going to stop them from settling their own land. Also US settlers were able to roll into Texas thanks to a weak Mexican government that couldn't control its own territory thanks to various separatist movements. The story might be different if the US found itself staring at a colony/nation across the Mississippi that was in a position to rebuke US claims and settlement in their territory.

With that late a POD, I don't see this happening.
A major American dream that most anyone could get was acquiring land. When that land runs out you move west.
People will push over that border eventually.
Whether any European power (or Mexico) has the Louisiana territory I don't think they could prevent American settlers from moving over in drones.

I do understand that the US didn't have the military in the beginning, but when needed the US would build up.
During the Whisky rebellion Washington managed to grab a lot of VOLUNTEER troops to make the farmers pay their taxes. Imagine if Mexicans/Brits/French were attacking their countrymen across the Mississippi.
I can see your point about the American willingness to go to war over territory even when faced with the aggression of a European power, but just because the US has the numbers and enthusiasm it still doesn't make up for a lack of a modern military. Take the war of 1812 for example, there was a sufficient amount of volunteers, willingness, and justification for war, but the US was walked all over. Not only were the British able to fight back the American military, they burned the US capital to the ground and all this while fighting a war in Europe. If that doesn't demonstrate US inferiority to more developed armies I dont know what does, sure they had some token victories like the Battle of New Orleans but it doesn't compensate for an overwhelming defeat.

An easy way to do this would be (as stated before) balkanize the US. That would ruin your POD though.
Then it wouldn't be a challenge ;)
 
I think Mexico could hold its own against the USA in this scenario. Immigration would obviously be a huge problem for Mexico/France/Britain. If Mexico was a British ally I doubt the US would want to cause a war over it. So give it to Mexico put Mexico in the British camp. If war does break out just have Britain trounce them from the north, west and by the sea.

That or a continuation of the Articles of Confederation. That would make expansion espicially difficult.

Im not so sure about Mexico, it was unstable with the territory it had OTL more would just acerbate the problems it had. Although having a British ally west of the Mississippi is a good idea, the British did have superiority to the US for much of its early years.

The only way I see of doing that would be to balkanize the US.

So your saying from the day the US gained independence it was destined to settle west of the Mississippi and there was no force that could stop it without balkanizing the country? I find that a little hard to believe, sure the nature of the US is to expand but a nation doesn't necessarily always achieve what it sets out to do, even if its people are united behind said cause.
 
Also what do you all think of the plausibility of my French idea? Essentially the French end up with Louisiana and are also allies of the US. The French refuse to part with the territory and the US are left with a choice of either going to war with a good ally or abandoning plans for expansion, I think the US would decide on the latter.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Mexican Lousiana probably is unsustainable, but I don't know about British Louisiana. Why not just move to British Louisiana and become British citizens? The folks are white and speak english, and until 1833 they'll even let you keep your slaves. The notion that "US will unite to take Louisiana from the British because they want it to be AMERICAN" seems anachronistic. Remember, at the time people were more Virginians, New Yorkers, Pensylvanians, etc. than they were Americans: Texas was originally independent and might have stayed that way if it weren't for the fact that their local government couldn't afford a pot to piss into.

It sounds nice, but it is unlikely to work. My ancestors were in this group, some were in Arkansas pre-Louisiana purchase. They had left Europe by 1750, perhaps by 1700 and did not think of themselves as English. So in many ways, this is asking why the Czechs don't just decide they are Austrian. Identity is a lot more than just language. Perhaps I should say it is like the Prussians just deciding they would rather be Austrians.

Also, while I am consider white today, many of these people are not-white by European standards, much less Anglo-Saxon. For example, my Dads side is Basque/Laplander. For other you have a lot of Native American blood or even escaped slave blood (greatly diluted from African). They would be trading largely independent villages where they can vote for being UK colonials. It is not in their best interest.

Now sure the UK could possibly prevent the USA from getting the Louisiana purchase, but it would require it being settled with non-Americans. And you are right, more non-Virginians or in my case non-Carolinians. The only population stream I see that is both big enough and loyal enough to the UK is the stream that went to Australia. So I would say a TL where France traded Louisiana for Australia is the only easily plausible one. Now if we want to do a Mexico analysis, we need the same thing, Mexicans to move to Louisiana in large numbers, or at least Spaniards. But Spain has so much other land, why choose Louisiana? Why chose a Malaria/Yellow Fever Swamp over say Argentina, Costa Rican highlands, or central Mexico. White people (generally lacking genetic adaptations) to almost always avoid Malaria swamps. Now one can right a TL where they go straight to Iowa, bu that requires some very complicated logistics compared to anything France, England or Spain ever did. It would require first putting a decent size army (10,000 soldiers) or so directly in Iowa and bringing up supplies up/down Louisiana.

And the USA had an easily logistical situation, all no fault of the USA government. My family makes a good example. They were west of British control by 1750. They would move as a group west, often about half a village at a time. They stayed in the same type land, far from disease that they new how to live on the land. They brought their own military power and combat experience. They had long history of working with/against various Indian groups. And this shows what any European power would have needed to settle. You don't need individuals to move over, you need entire villages complete with militias to move over.

And France had a side issue of declining birth rates so lack of population to export.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I can see your point about the American willingness to go to war over territory even when faced with the aggression of a European power, but just because the US has the numbers and enthusiasm it still doesn't make up for a lack of a modern military. Take the war of 1812 for example, there was a sufficient amount of volunteers, willingness, and justification for war, but the US was walked all over. Not only were the British able to fight back the American military, they burned the US capital to the ground and all this while fighting a war in Europe. If that doesn't demonstrate US inferiority to more developed armies I dont know what does, sure they had some token victories like the Battle of New Orleans but it doesn't compensate for an overwhelming defeat.

You statement is true if you just look at a 100 red coats versus a 100 militia. The issue becomes the logistical tail. Now the UK could take and hold the Island New Orleans, as it was called back then. Resupply by sea fits the British pattern. But this only keeps the USA out of southern and perhaps central Louisiana. New Orleans is surrounded by malarial swamp, hence the name Island of New Orleans. It is how it was labeled by maps of the day. My ancestors (Hillbillies) will still flood into Arkansas. Other groups will come down the Ohio into the Missouri/Iowa area. Unless someone spends a huge amount on troops, which is very unlikely. We are looking at several million settlers by the early 1800's in the middle of america, so we are talking a militia of over 400K. So we are talking about a rather large standing garrison, not a regiment or two. All supplied from across an ocean, up a 1000 mile of river. It would be the same difficulty as having a similar size garrison in the Central Congo basin.

Now on the other end, a more successful UK could have more land around the great lakes, and the water makes for a much easier logistic pattern. But even here, large gains that are held require large numbers of settlers. It would be easy for the USA to lose Michigan or upper Minnesota. It is easy for the USA to lose Louisiana, it is the middle that is hard to keep the USA out of.

So in many ways the UK made a wise set of decisions. Now they could have had more gains such as Michigan or New Orleans, but things could have also gone worse in the 1800's.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Also what do you all think of the plausibility of my French idea? Essentially the French end up with Louisiana and are also allies of the US. The French refuse to part with the territory and the US are left with a choice of either going to war with a good ally or abandoning plans for expansion, I think the US would decide on the latter.

The same USA who took Florida is a war? Who fought numerous wars with Indians? Who settlers fought for Texas independence? Who then provoked a war with Mexico? Unlikely. The USA will go to war if necessary.

It is important to remember what stopped USA expansion, it was not we became peace lovers. It was the death and financial crippling of the civil war. It took us 20-30 years to recover financially. It was our WW1 or WW2. We had about 40 million then, really about 36 million net of slaves who largely did not fight. We lost 600,000 dead and spent 4 billion USD. So lets compare our 1.6% of population with some other losses.

England in WW1 - 2.19.
France in WW1 - 4.29
Germany in WW1 - 3.82
UK in WW2 - 0.94
France in WW2 - 1.35

The financial is a bit more difficult to compare. There is stable prices, so we can compare the 4 billion directly to the 35-57 billion for UK in WW1 or the 2 billion UK loan to Italy. And the populations are comparable. The issue more relates to a large gain in GDP over the intervening two generations. Probably the fairest comparison is the ACW was like a half a WW1 for England/Germany/France.
 
You make a good point, it really did take a catastrophic war to take the wind out of the US sails. Would it be possible to have that sort of conflict earlier in US history or to stop the expansionist mentality? Someone mentioned a US based on the articles of confederation for example.
 
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