What if Tokugawa Ieyasu converted to Christanity?
- Thread starter Jouaint
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Delvestius
Banned
I know a bit, and this is exactly what would happen. That's probably the worst thing he could possibly do, and if were to happen Japanese unification would occur much later, if at all, and may end up being picked apart by foreign powers.
Christians where a very fast growing group in the country and more than a few Daimyos had converted, this may tip the balance of power to the point where the non-christian daimyos end up out matched.
The premise was that this was after Tokugawa Ieyasu rises to the Shogunate. In that case, many of his rivals are dead (Shingen, Kenshin, Mitsunari), and the one that thing that could cause him trouble (Hideyoshi's heir rebelling) is still not enough to topple him. Who, exactly, would be able to cause enough trouble to reverse all of Tokugawa's gains over the last two or three decades?
Delvestius
Banned
I just really don't think the population would be down for it. There is a big possibility of a grassroots rebellion and a subsequent installation of a more conservative Shogun chosen by rebelling nobility across Japan, even that of which was previously allied with Tokugawa.
I don't think the population will be up to it either, but the grassroots movement would probably fail, given the Ikko ikki movement's record. Given the fact that the nobility and daimyo didn't cooperate with the peasant revolts too much then, I'll safely assume that they won't likely here, either. As for the daimyo, I'd also think that most of them would play it safe, and that there'd also be die-hard support from the Christian daimyo if Tokugawa instituted Christianity as a religion. Thus, if Tokugawa decides to instituted Christianity as the new state religion, he'd probably succeed outwardly, though at the local level, people will keep their local religions, and we'd get a syncretic mix.
I'm guessing we'd see more of a syncretic mix between Christianity and Shinto - instead praying to the saints, you pray to your ancestors, meditation and prayer are interchangable. It could be a facinating hybrid.
Delvestius
Banned
While I still think there's a big possibility Christianization would fail, this is a likely possibility that was enjoyable to read and fun to think about.
It also depends on whether his children follow suit. He became the Shogun very late in his life and his children weren't Christian. If his children convert then it would have dramatic consequences on Christianity in Japan as well as relations with the Portuguese.
But if his children don't believe, they could use his Christianity as a reason to take power from him or force him into early retirement.
But if his children don't believe, they could use his Christianity as a reason to take power from him or force him into early retirement.
The simple absence of persecution and continued openness to missionary activity ought to substantially increase the number of Japanese Catholics, regardless of how much further christianity spreads among the damiyo.
Continued Jesuit activity ought also to help maintain good relations with Portugal and Spain. Since the Jesuits were a conduit for western trade, the Christian damiyo would have an advantageous position in the import and copying of European powder and weapons, not to mention the mercantile profits. That sort of advantage could be a very practical reason for Ieyasu's conversion, and maybe even a decisive one in the event of rebellion.
If Japan maintains a Portuguese-favored western policy, how are the other Europeans apt to respond? The Dutch and English would very much like to have access to Japanese trade, but what can they offer that the Portuguese can't? They certainly wouldn't be able to force the issue, at least not effectively.
Continued Jesuit activity ought also to help maintain good relations with Portugal and Spain. Since the Jesuits were a conduit for western trade, the Christian damiyo would have an advantageous position in the import and copying of European powder and weapons, not to mention the mercantile profits. That sort of advantage could be a very practical reason for Ieyasu's conversion, and maybe even a decisive one in the event of rebellion.
If Japan maintains a Portuguese-favored western policy, how are the other Europeans apt to respond? The Dutch and English would very much like to have access to Japanese trade, but what can they offer that the Portuguese can't? They certainly wouldn't be able to force the issue, at least not effectively.
He's simply not going to do this.
He was a canny Machiavellian politician. Converting to Christianity (at least Roman Catholicism) essentially gives up power to the Spanish. Not quite in the sense of becoming their puppet, but definitely giving them room to meddle - and they would.
Even if he personally converted, he'd keep it quiet, almost certainly.
If you want to change his personality enough that personal faith trumped expediency, then he'd never have gotten to the Shogunate in the first place.
Nor would he convert to Protestantism, although that's a fun idea. At least Catholicism had significant inroads in the south, and a couple of convert Daimyo. NO ONE was protestant.
OK. Could he do something really silly like create a 'national church', basically accept any priests and converts that were already there - but absolutely split from Rome? Basically a Henry VIII solution.
Hmmm.... That's the only way I see it working at all. In which case he still likely shuts the doors to the Spanish and works with the Dutch. Or English.
He was a canny Machiavellian politician. Converting to Christianity (at least Roman Catholicism) essentially gives up power to the Spanish. Not quite in the sense of becoming their puppet, but definitely giving them room to meddle - and they would.
Even if he personally converted, he'd keep it quiet, almost certainly.
If you want to change his personality enough that personal faith trumped expediency, then he'd never have gotten to the Shogunate in the first place.
Nor would he convert to Protestantism, although that's a fun idea. At least Catholicism had significant inroads in the south, and a couple of convert Daimyo. NO ONE was protestant.
OK. Could he do something really silly like create a 'national church', basically accept any priests and converts that were already there - but absolutely split from Rome? Basically a Henry VIII solution.
Hmmm.... That's the only way I see it working at all. In which case he still likely shuts the doors to the Spanish and works with the Dutch. Or English.
This opens up for another Chinese Rites type of controversy.
NothingNow
Banned
Agreed to all, the above, but how would one fit the emperor, and all that into the system. Since making him the Archbishop or something similar wouldn't work (it'd give them an actual powerbase for one,) and otherwise it'd put the whole system in jeopardy, and could lead to a full on revolution down the line, especially if they try to impose a national religion.
That said, seeing it Syncretize would be interesting. Syncretic religions usually are.
