Was Britains rise as a superpower inevitable?

Hello all, I've seen threads in the past that have stated that both America and Russia rise to global/near global dominance was inevitable given the immense resources that both those nations could call upon. Basically one they got started theres was just no stopping them, short of an ice age. I'm possible exaggerating this point so correct me if I'm wrong.

So what about Britain? We are a group of small islands in the north sea that like being wet and complaining about being wet, yet we came to control a quarter of the surface of the world and their people, we were not just a superpower, we were the power. But after WWII and the dissolving of the empire, our economic and military importance dwindled to a point of near collapse.

This has lead me to wonder weather or not we grew too big. Were we powerful because we controlled a quarter of the planet? Or were powerful enough to control a quarter of the planet?

If anyone wants that explained let me know. Anyway thought on this would be much appreciated.
 
Britains ride to powerful was partly inevitable. You need to remember the following things.

1. England was united much earlier than their European neighbours and we have had very little civil trouble since compared to others in Europe.

2. We have lots of fertile land and a perfect climate which allows us to maintain a bigger population much easier.

3. Being an island offered us significant protection from other countries. Being an island gave us incentive to put a lot of work into our navy which would protect us. With such a navy it is inevitable that we would become a seafaring nation.

4. We have minimal natural resources here which gave us incentive to go abroad to seek what we want. It also gave us incentive to industrialise much earlier than anyone else.


As for conquering a quarter of the globe. You could call that a mixture of luck, military superiority over non-European countries and tactful diplomacy.
 
It wasn't inevitable, but Britain's geographical position was certainly favorable for acquiring a world-spanning empire. Britain's isolation from mainland Europe meant that it was free to develop its navy as much as it could, and it was also blessed with the concentration of resources to industrialize first. That combination of relative peace and industry allowed Britain to become the dominant trading power and that translated into political power.

Still, Britain at its height was never equal to the US or USSR at their height; it was the most powerful Great Power, never a dominant superpower. I think it would be easier to dismantle Britain as a world power with a POD around, say, 1830 than it would be to dismantle the US or Russia with a POD of around then.
 
Still, Britain at its height was never equal to the US or USSR at their height; it was the most powerful Great Power, never a dominant superpower. I think it would be easier to dismantle Britain as a world power with a POD around, say, 1830 than it would be to dismantle the US or Russia with a POD of around then.

I disagree with this. Up until 1880-1890, the British Empire was the undisputed world power. No one could contest them. They likely had more influence than even the US or USSR at their respective hieghts, as they not only had direct control over much of the world's surface and population, they also influenced many nations as well (along with how they were run). Every nation looked up to them and tried to buddy up with them in the 19th century, as they knew beating the British was not an option. So I think that not only did Great Britain at its height possess power comparable to the US/USSR during the Cold War, but actually exerted more influence than either individual power.
 
4. We have minimal natural resources here which gave us incentive to go abroad to seek what we want. It also gave us incentive to industrialise much earlier than anyone else.

Britain sits on decent iron reserves, lots of tin and other soft metals, and the biggest coal bed outside the Ruhr. It's small and flat enough to be easily connected by canals. It's got a very good climate for growing food, as well.

No, rather than having not enough resources Britain had the perfect setup for the industrial age. The only better place I can think of is Eastern USA.
 

Thande

Donor
No, absolutely not. We were in the right place at the right time with the right people in charge and we got a lot of lucky breaks.

We do have a lot of resources appropriate for industry but that means nothing--so does Congo. If your country is full of mineral resources then it's as likely to be conquered and exploited by another country as to become a powerhouse as a result of that; indeed, that very thing happened to Britain on the receiving end of Romans seeking tin.
 
No, absolutely not. We were in the right place at the right time with the right people in charge and we got a lot of lucky breaks.

We do have a lot of resources appropriate for industry but that means nothing--so does Congo. If your country is full of mineral resources then it's as likely to be conquered and exploited by another country as to become a powerhouse as a result of that; indeed, that very thing happened to Britain on the receiving end of Romans seeking tin.

(I only meant the industrial resources were perfect for a country like Britain that was highly centralised, unbothered by neighbours, and had enough populaton to take advantage of it. Plus of course removing people from the land to create a mobile labour pool really helped in that regard).
 
Inevitable, no.
After a certain point, which I would put around late 1600s/early1700s, things were arranged in a way to make it quite easy to happen. Reversable until the Industrial Revolution really took off and position in India not solidified, so I'd say Britain would be at least a very prominent Great Power with most plausible PoDs after around 1770.
However, Britain is not a large island in absolute terms and the stresses of incipient large economic change can be daunting.
Something going horribly wrong in political situation can do wonders against any superpower status.
In general however, Britain has had a lot of factors going for her, and some of them are about geography and geology. Luck helped, sure.
 

Freizeit

Banned
In my opinion, it's the British Isles' political stability that made Britain's rise inevitable. Due to its geographic position Britain didn't need to worry about foreign invasion to the same degree the German states or France did, and the Civil War helped to get rid of pressure that could have caused a much more violent revolution against the monarch in England, similar to France. Stability encourages expansion, and expansion brought wealth and power.
 
Still, Britain at its height was never equal to the US or USSR at their height; it was the most powerful Great Power, never a dominant superpower..

Actually, the power each of them held at their height was very similar, but I think the British had more power than any other country has held or ever will hold at their height.

First off, Britain held total military superiority over the world, similar to the way the United States held military superiority. The core British Army was a significant-sized force that was professional, and well-trained and equipped. And there were numerous colonial regiments from all over the world to call on, so the British had one of the largest and best-quality armies in the world (the French Army was larger, though). However, the trump card was Royal Navy, which was by far the most dominant power on the world oceans. And with total mastery of the seas, Britain held total military superiority, since no one could trade with the outside world if they were at war with Britain, and the British could freely invade any country in the world without fear of being invaded.

However, beyond that, they held economic dominance. They produced about half the world's finished products, and their merchant fleet had by far most of the world's merchant ships (I think it was up to 90%). This in addition to them controlling a quarter of the world with all those natural resources and local industries. To maintain their economy, they needed to import millions of tons of products. So virtually all economic activity in the world involved Britain in some way, and the British could take charge of exporting and importing goods from all over the world.

For example, a British agent would buy cotton from the US, send it home on a British merchant ship, where it would be produced into clothes and British merchants would then sell it to other countries. This was how world trade worked, with Britain almost always involved some way.

Then, there is the fact that the London Stock Exchange was the only global one. Every country did it's business through London. Every great power owed Britain something.

No other country, not even the USA of today, has such an effect on the world economy. Of course, economic events in the United States affect the world, but when the US imposes sanctions on a country, it can't bankrupt them the way Britain could by refusing to trade with them or give them loans from the London Stock Exchange. For that reason, I believe Britain at it's height was the strongest nation in history.
 
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Aside from natural resources, everything went right for the British at the right time.

1. Losing their Continental holdings to France allowed England to prevent existential crises caused by having a strong land neighbor.
2. A royal marriage paid dividends when the Stuarts inherited England, and thus united Great Britain under one monarch.
3. The religious climate allowed dissidents to settle in the New World as opposed to moving somewhere else in Europe (though the Dutch are partly to blame too)
4. The end of the War of the Spanish Succession began the British policy of focusing on financial as opposed to territorial gain - territory was gained with the intent of profit, as opposed to prestige.
 
No, rather than having not enough resources Britain had the perfect setup for the industrial age. The only better place I can think of is Eastern USA.

I am going say that a divided China could potentially be ripe for an industrial era, or an India that develops differently.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
No, it was not inevitable to rise to as powerful as it came to be. It had many advantages, but it could have made more mistakes. Just imagine some King PM with the social graces of Kaiser Wilhelm II or a leader that decides to fight the entire world at the same time like Hitler. Something as simple as declaring war on Russia and then burning St. Petersburg while at war with Napoleon drastically changes history. And others could have done things better too - Napoleon, Spanish Armada, avoiding 30 year war in Germany, Hapsburg do better, Louis do better, etc.

I am not sure the Superpower phrase is that useful. A Superpower is basically a Great Power leading an Alliance system in a two Alliance world. The UK was a Great Power, in a more fragmented world.
 
Britain sits on decent iron reserves, lots of tin and other soft metals, and the biggest coal bed outside the Ruhr. It's small and flat enough to be easily connected by canals. It's got a very good climate for growing food, as well.

No, rather than having not enough resources Britain had the perfect setup for the industrial age. The only better place I can think of is Eastern USA.

What he said...
 
Britain sits on decent iron reserves, lots of tin and other soft metals, and the biggest coal bed outside the Ruhr. It's small and flat enough to be easily connected by canals. It's got a very good climate for growing food, as well.

No, rather than having not enough resources Britain had the perfect setup for the industrial age. The only better place I can think of is Eastern USA.

So, if the Native Americans had domesticated animals...
 
Actually, the power each of them held at their height was very similar, but I think the British had more power than any other country has held or ever will hold at their height.

First off, Britain held total military superiority over the world, similar to the way the United States held military superiority. The core British Army was a significant-sized force that was professional, and well-trained and equipped. And there were numerous colonial regiments from all over the world to call on, so the British had one of the largest and best-quality armies in the world (the French Army was larger, though). However, the trump card was Royal Navy, which was by far the most dominant power on the world oceans. And with total mastery of the seas, Britain held total military superiority, since no one could trade with the outside world if they were at war with Britain, and the British could freely invade any country in the world without fear of being invaded.

Note that this is written by an Anglophile. All figures taken from The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers - those with different figures are requested to provide their sources for comparison.

Army size is rather low. Let's take 1880 as an example year (used for all other figures when possible)

Military and naval personal: Britain is fourth place (Russia, France, Germany, Britain, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan, United States):

Military Personnel alone is even more dismal, although the figures are apparently not comparable, so we'll stick with those in chapter 5.

Warship tonnage: #1 by a substantial margin, yes (France, #2, has less than half of Britain's total, Russia less than a third, and the US something over a quarter).

Quality-wise, I have yet to hear of anyone describing the British army in this period as a particularly elite force, but even if it was, that's a small army. A small army mostly scattered all over this huge, sprawling empire.

Hardly an overwhelming force that can be concentrated on anything without massive wartime effort (and according strain).

However, beyond that, they held economic dominance. They produced about half the world's finished products, and their merchant fleet had by far most of the world's merchant ships (I think it was up to 90%). This in addition to them controlling a quarter of the world with all those natural resources and local industries. To maintain their economy, they needed to import millions of tons of products. So virtually all economic activity in the world involved Britain in some way, and the British could take charge of exporting and importing goods from all over the world.
"Manufacturing" is 22.9% (1st place) in 1880, but down to second place (18.5%) in 1900 and third (13.6%) in 1913.

Merchant fleet size is not given, but I would be doubtful of it being quite so high as that.

Most of those natural resources were undeveloped, and the local industries fairly insignificant.

"Virtually all' economic activity? Oh please. The world did not depend on imports or exports from Britain.

For example, a British agent would buy cotton from the US, send it home on a British merchant ship, where it would be produced into clothes and British merchants would then sell it to other countries. This was how world trade worked, with Britain almost always involved some way.
This is how British trade worked. That is not how world trade worked.

Then, there is the fact that the London Stock Exchange was the only global one. Every country did it's business through London. Every great power owed Britain something.
"Owed Britain something"?

No other country, not even the USA of today, has such an effect on the world economy. Of course, economic events in the United States affect the world, but when the US imposes sanctions on a country, it can't bankrupt them the way Britain could by refusing to trade with them or give them loans from the London Stock Exchange. For that reason, I believe the British Empire
Britain refusing to trade or refusing to give someone loans from the LSE is not a recipe for bankrupcy for the country in question, or we would be looking at a Germany bankruptcy in 1915 in WWI.

Britain certainly had many advantages, but describing its rise as inevitable or its power OTL as absolute are too much.
 
Britain sits on decent iron reserves, lots of tin and other soft metals, and the biggest coal bed outside the Ruhr. It's small and flat enough to be easily connected by canals. It's got a very good climate for growing food, as well.

No, rather than having not enough resources Britain had the perfect setup for the industrial age. The only better place I can think of is Eastern USA.

I'd add Japan to your list.
 
I'd add Japan to your list.

Japan is rather short of the resources for industrialization, though. Look at how much it had to import OTL (I'd say "and has to", but the present day is different than the 19th/early 20th century demands of industrialization).
 
I do not believe that it was inevitable; Rather a mixture of clever diplomacy, decisive use of force when required and lots of luck. To my mind, how it held together as long as it did is the true miracle. The second set of figures quoted for the actual measurable military power of the Empire ring much truer than the first. Think about it, the vaunted Empire came close to defeat by the boers in 1900, was wacked by the Indians in the mutiny, etc. Fact is the two world wars demonstrated how basically weak the Empire was when the cards were down.
 
I do not believe that it was inevitable; Rather a mixture of clever diplomacy, decisive use of force when required and lots of luck. To my mind, how it held together as long as it did is the true miracle. The second set of figures quoted for the actual measurable military power of the Empire ring much truer than the first. Think about it, the vaunted Empire came close to defeat by the boers in 1900, was wacked by the Indians in the mutiny, etc. Fact is the two world wars demonstrated how basically weak the Empire was when the cards were down.

I think taking folk like William III and Robert Clive out of the picture would change things a lot.
 
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