Daimler-Benz 603 not cancelled in 1937

http://translate.google.com/transla...a=X&ei=2hhnUJa_JerVyAH3pIGABQ&ved=0CEMQ7gEwBA

The DB 603 as a scion of the DB 600 series was offered in 1936 for the RLM. The development of the DB 603 in 1937, stopped by the RLM, charged the costs incurred and bought the test unit of Daimler Benz. By 1939, the development of the engine was running then at company expense and the RLM 1939 received a final report on the results achieved development.
In early 1940, the situation changed rapidly and it was a confirmation of the first 120 DB 603s.

Click to expand...

I've seen this confirmed in the following book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Dv...wAw#v=onepage&q=Daimler-benz 603 1937&f=false
Though sadly there is no preview I can link to with the information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603

Performance
Power output:
1,287 kW (1,750 PS) for takeoff
1,111 kW (1,510 PS) maximum continuous
Specific power: 26.7 kW/L (0.59 hp/in3)
Compression ratio: 7.5:1 left cylinder bank, 7.3:1 right cylinder bank
Specific fuel consumption: 0.288 kg/(kW·h) (0.474 lb/(hp·h))
Power-to-weight ratio: 1.29 kW/kg (0.79 hp/lb)

Click to expand...

For comparison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Specifications_.28BMW_801_C.29

Performance
Power output: 1,560 PS (1,539 hp, 1,147 kW) at 2,700 rpm for takeoff at sea level (not maximum continuous)
Specific power: 27.44 kW/L (0.60 hp/in³)
Compression ratio: 6.5:1
Specific fuel consumption: 0.308 kg/(kW·h) (0.506 lb/(hp·h))
Power-to-weight ratio: 1.13 kW/kg (0.69 hp/lb)

Click to expand...

So what if the German Aviation Ministry (RLM) didn't cancel development of the DB603 in 1937 only to restart it in 1940? Historically Daimler-Benz did continue development at a low level for this engine, but lacking military funds, they didn't pursue it hard and were shy about producing the model once the war was on, as they were afraid to lose money on tooling up for a model that the RLM would cancel again.

From what I can tell with greater military support and promises of contracts once the model is developed, I think it's feasible that the development of this model is moved up at least a year. So it would be ready in spring 1941 and several models could be designed around it. The FW190 for instance was initially supposed to be a liquid-cooled design, but was forced to be designed around the air-cooled radial BMW801 that wasn't functional until 1942. The Do217 also had that issue, as did other aircraft that were supposed to accept the BMW801 because of its horse power.
Instead the more powerful DB603 could have been accepted even earlier than the weaker (at the time) BMW engine AND have better fuel consumption too.

That would mean the FW190 enters combat in mid-1941 instead of 1942 and would be able to fight at higher altitudes because of its liquid cooled engines.
The Do217 with its 4 ton bomb load would be ready to fight in 1941, instead of having to wait for the BMW to work out its cooling problems.
The Ju88 could also be adapted to the much more powerful DB603s, which would dramatically improve performance both for bomber and fighter versions. Perhaps even the He177 would try for the 4 propellor version earlier, as two uncoupled DB603s offered power hp than a coupled DB606 welded engine.

This opens up all sorts of butterflies, does anyone have any suggestions?

So if the Fw190 get's the DB603 in 41 they're actually getting the Fw 190D long nosed version three years earlier. That's quite a jump. I guess they can also put in the Me-110 it would improve the speed at least and give it chance to get away from those pesky Hurricanes.

High-output DB603 engines had a service life of 40 hours between overhaul, which was a cause for delay in entering mass production. German chemists originally discovered indium. It's use as a flash coating for bearing shells instead of tin, would have prolonged engine life, and allowed the engine to complete a 100 hour type test and establish full production.

The use of the secret Mexican bean oil as a motor lubricant would have accomplished the same thing.

Just Leo said:

The use of the secret Mexican bean oil as a motor lubricant would have accomplished the same thing.

Click to expand...

Do you have any more information about this?

The Jojoba bean.

Just Leo said:

The Jojoba bean.

Click to expand...

Wasn't it discovered in the 1970's as industrially useful? Without a second POD that kind of makes that a moot issue. Indium was discovered in the 1860's and could have been adapted earlier for the engine if the work was put into it earlier.

According to Wiki and a couple of other sites the usefulness of the jojoba bean wasn't discovered till 1971 after the ban of sperm whale oil. so you're kind of out of luck there.

Schneider cup revived for 1939, Daimer Benz authorised to build a limited series of DB603 for use in a projected Heinkel race seaplane. The race project is used by DB to work out the bugs on the engine.
Junkers is bugged by DB progress and gets its Ju213 engine ready sooner...

cortz#9 said:

According to Wiki and a couple of other sites the usefulness of the jojoba bean wasn't discovered till 1971 after the ban of sperm whale oil. so you're kind of out of luck there.

Click to expand...

There as to be something twisted in a POD that helps the nazis and the whales at the same time.

AdA said:

There as to be something twisted in a POD that helps the nazis and the whales at the same time.

Click to expand...

It's usually the unusual and twisted that makes history interesting. So why shouldn't it hold true for ATLs as well.

The exact date the jojoba bean was discovered isn't recorded in history because it was in active use when sperm whales were plentiful. Mayans possibly used the bean. It would have been useful in WWI as a far superior lubricant to the deadly castor bean for the rotary engines of the time. Britain ruled most sources of the castor bean. The Zimmermann Telegram of 1917 specifically mentions Arizona in uncoded text. Coincidence? Could it have been all about obtaining beans for Germany's war effort? WWI German fighter pilots wouldn't have to be thinking about having a dump in the middle of a critical combat, and would have nicer skin to boot.

Just Leo said:

The exact date the jojoba bean was discovered isn't recorded in history because it was in active use when sperm whales were plentiful. Mayans possibly used the bean. It would have been useful in WWI as a far superior lubricant to the deadly castor bean for the rotary engines of the time. Britain ruled most sources of the castor bean. The Zimmermann Telegram of 1917 specifically mentions Arizona in uncoded text. Coincidence? Could it have been all about obtaining beans for Germany's war effort? WWI German fighter pilots wouldn't have to be thinking about having a dump in the middle of a critical combat, and would have nicer skin to boot.

Click to expand...

When was Indium first used as a flash coating?

wiking said:

When was Indium first used as a flash coating?

Click to expand...

It was used as part of the modifications to the Packard Merlin for American production. It was developed by Pontiac engineers at General Motors as an alternative to zinc, another coating material. Indium is found in zinc ore. I don't know the exact day.

Just Leo said:

It was used as part of the modifications to the Packard Merlin for American production. It was developed by Pontiac engineers at General Motors as an alternative to zinc, another coating material. Indium is found in zinc ore. I don't know the exact day.

Click to expand...

Mostlyharmless said:

This thread seems to throw up a few basic questions. The first is whether the DB 603 could have been a widely available and reliable engine in 1943. The second is related question is why the RLM did not make more effort to ensure that it was widely available and reliable. I think that the reason is that they expected the Jumo 213 to outperform it. Here are a few links to discussions of those issues on other fora:

DB 603 numbers http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8971

DB 603 reliability in 1943 http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16941

DB 603 oil problems http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-353495.html

DB 603 - Jumo 213 comparison http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/db-603-vs-ju-213-a-34815.html

DB 603 handbook http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/handbook-db-603-a-27291.html

Incidentally, AFAIK the first use of indium in bearings was by Pratt & Whitney (see page 7 of www.enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf)

The other question is why the Fw190 v13 performance did not make a stronger impression. The v13 has been made as a model and the little that we know is discussed in this review http://hsfeatures.com/features04/fw190v13jh_1.htm

One problem seems to have been that even better performance might have been achieved using a turbocharger. However, Germany hardly managed to get a turbocharged BMW into production before the end of WW2. I conjectured that they might have lacked the necessary alloys. Alternatively the engineers and metallurgists needed to make one work were exactly those needed to make a jet work (a turbocharged piston engine is a jet with an unusually complex combustion chamber) and were thus unavailable. The other was that the RLM preferred the Jumo 213. However, until the firing order was changed, the 213 was totally unreliable.

Click to expand...

At least as far as I can tell Indium was not used by Germany for her engines, only the US. So when the DB603A was made more reliable by late 1943 it was not with Indium.
Therefore it was a matter of development and having sufficient parts around.

So this brings us back around to the original point of this thread: the DB603 continuing development from 1936, when it was originally offered, through 1937 when it was cancelled IOTL on through the war.

Engines took about 5-6 years of development in WW2 to make it fully reliable and mass produceable. IOTL development was interrupted and made a back-burner project. When it was reactivated, it was a second tier project until 1942-3 and Daimler was constantly fearful that the RLM would cancel the engine again.

Here though if starting in 1936 as per OTL it would be fully reliable if properly funded by at the latest 1942, which IOTL it wasn't until late 1943-early 1944. It potentially could have been ready by 1941, but for the sake of argument, let's say it requires the fully 6 years of development from 1936.

If fully ready for action in 1942 then all of the original OP holds:
we have the FW190C by 1942-3, large amounts of high powered bomber engines are available for projects like the Ju88, 188, Do 217, He277, Ju290/390, etc.

The biggest effect is on the fighter program, which means I suppose I should link in my other thread on the subject:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=264859

Even for bomber projects in the medium range, the huge boost in HP would help make up for the failure of projects like the Jumo 222 and the cancelled DB604. It would open up more future development, as its later versions were well over 2000hp, which ITTL would appear earlier than IOTL, such as the DB603N (2800hp).