Indonesia is one of the top ten countries with the largest Muslim population based on the total Muslim population in a country. In a world without Islam what shape would Malaya and Indonesia take? Would the Empire of Srivijaya last longer? How would Hinduism and Buddhism fair in the region without Islam to displace them? Will Christianity be able to gain any kind of meaningful following in the region?
Indonesia and Malaya without Islam?
- Thread starter GeneralInTheShell
- Start date
The hinduism of Bali may spread, or thrive more, and yeah, Buddhism...
And related... Who know, maybe there would be missionaries of the former or later to Philipines - there is a state of the islands who had power in Philipines.
There are two families that were kinda powerful in the OTL Philippines
-Sulu
-Tondo
The Tondo clan got extinct because the Bolkiahs wanted to get the Port city of Manila and defeated them.
So yeah, there is a possibility of a strong state there going beyond Indonesia-Malaysia proper and setting power, and perhaps missionaries...
A buddhist or hinduist Philipines could be interesting. Heck, butterlies sending peoples to the Ryukyu, maybe?
Buddhism and Hinduism would likely remai prevalent, though Christianity or Judaism or Zoroastrianism all could have the chance to take Islam's role.
IOTL Malaya and Indonesia became Muslim as a result of the traders and merchants sailing from Arabia, Persia and India being Muslims, which created an economic incentive for conversion and later missionaries and other groups moved in, so if you get traders and merchants from the same areas ITTL they could bring along whatever religions they belong to; in the case of Perisa that would be Zoroastrianism and in the case of Arabia that would be Christianity and Judaism*.
That all said I think you'd most likely though end-up with a more religiously pluralistic region, with Buddhism, Hinduism (both strengthened from Indian contacts), Chrsitianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and possibly even some of the Indigenous faiths from elsewhere all being introduced to the region and gaining converts/followers.
*Before the advent of Islam the Arabian peninsula, ranging from Jordan to Oman was split between Jews, Christians and followers of the Indigenous Arabian religions, one of which was a Monotheistic religion basd on a Lunar Goddess.
IOTL Malaya and Indonesia became Muslim as a result of the traders and merchants sailing from Arabia, Persia and India being Muslims, which created an economic incentive for conversion and later missionaries and other groups moved in, so if you get traders and merchants from the same areas ITTL they could bring along whatever religions they belong to; in the case of Perisa that would be Zoroastrianism and in the case of Arabia that would be Christianity and Judaism*.
That all said I think you'd most likely though end-up with a more religiously pluralistic region, with Buddhism, Hinduism (both strengthened from Indian contacts), Chrsitianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and possibly even some of the Indigenous faiths from elsewhere all being introduced to the region and gaining converts/followers.
*Before the advent of Islam the Arabian peninsula, ranging from Jordan to Oman was split between Jews, Christians and followers of the Indigenous Arabian religions, one of which was a Monotheistic religion basd on a Lunar Goddess.
Flocculencio
Donor
You've got it the wrong way around- Balinese Hinduism is the remnant of Javanese Hinduism. Interestingly while the whole of SE Asia was generally Hindu-Buddhist, in comparison to mainland SE Asia where Buddhism rose to dominance (and remained dominant) it seems that Hinduism was more dominant in the Malay world. What we see in Bali is a remnant of that.
Christianity and Judaism are unlikely to make much of an impact- they had the chance IOTL and neither were as dominant a force among the traders from Arabia and India.
Ah well. thank for the point, it is a fascinating region and history that I don't know a lot, I admit.
Not so sure about that. Once militarily and economically powerful europeans arrive, they would make sizable numbers of converts if islam wasnt there. Not to denigrate Mar Thomans - its a LOT easier to make converts if there is a clear economic and political advantage to convert.
Once Islam arrived, it largely filled the space, political, economic and religious that christianity could have. And islam makes it really hard to convert people away from it.
Was the Hindu-Buddist endemic culture not dominant on Flores, Timor, or the other Indonesian islands which converted to Christianity?
Teejay
Gone Fishin'
If what is now Malaysia and Indonesia did not become Muslim, it would have remained Hindu/Buddhist and Pagan. Until probably starting in the 16th century with Portuguese Catholic, Dutch and then British Protestant missionaries, start converting the locals to Christianity, which happened in OTL).
So you would likely have the whole of OTL Malyasia and Indonesia being Christian, instead of in OTL only areas such as Kalimantan, Flores, Sumba, Timor and most of Sulawesi being Christian. Although the Malay peninsula, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Lombok could have remained majority Hindu/Buddhist to our time. It would depend on the people in these areas being receptive or not to the Christian message.
So you would likely have the whole of OTL Malyasia and Indonesia being Christian, instead of in OTL only areas such as Kalimantan, Flores, Sumba, Timor and most of Sulawesi being Christian. Although the Malay peninsula, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Lombok could have remained majority Hindu/Buddhist to our time. It would depend on the people in these areas being receptive or not to the Christian message.
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The OP stated that it was a world without Islam, without Islam their would'nt be a Portugal in the first place, the Dutch very likely would'nt exist and the Church may not even split.
Teejay
Gone Fishin'
Good point, so in the timeline the OP proposed, Sumatra, the Malay Peninsula along with Java would remain Hindu/Buddhist (like OTL Bali is).
The Buddhist Srivijaya Empire covered Malayan Peninsula, Sumatra and he West Java during the period from nineth to thirteenth centuries. The Hindu Majapahit Empire controlled the Eastern Islands of OTL Indonesia including Java and southern part of Sumatra from the thirteenth to sixteenth centuries. If Islam hadn't appeared Malaya and Sumatra might have remained Buddhist and Java and other eastern islands Hindu with a few smaller islands becoming Christian. The Dutch rule may encourage elite sections of all islands to adopt Christianity making it a large minority.
Srivijaya was'nt predominantly Buddhist, it was a mix of both Buddhism and Hinduism.
Flocculencio
Donor
Ah, if you're positing the Europeans arriving and converting people then that's a different issue altogether. I was presuming that a POD eliminating Islam would have major butterflies in the West.
Not particularly- basically past Bali and Lombok things started to shade out into traditional animist/shamanist beliefs.
Ummm... ya, i think i misread the first post. No islam at all, as opposed to no islam in the archipelago, which is what i was thinking of, has HUGE butterflies in the west, and would likely delay the renaissance and the following intellectual and technological ferment. You are, of course, right.
While it would certainly change things, it likely would'nt stop/slow European colonization of South-East Asia, given that Europe had already started its colonization phase (Portugal in the 1400's, DEI in the 1600's) before the Renaissance had fully taken effect/influenced Europe.
Flocculencio
Donor
With a POD in the 600s speaking of Portugal colonising in the 1400s is a bit out there.
Oh I don't mean Portugal, I was just using those as OTL examples o countries that started colonizasing before the Renaissance and later Enlightenment changed things.
Indeed, I very much doubt Portugal would ever exist, given its creation was dependent on the Reconquista.
No Islam TL?
Much depends on what religion the Arab and South Indian traders that brought Islam to the East Indies in TTL followed. Monophystitic Christianity or Judaism is the best bet (Buddhism is a possibility but it already has a local followng).