Can the Axis force Malta to surrender without invasion?

Lets say the Germans had 200 additional aircraft focused on nothing but attacking Malta in 1942. Could the Germans thus completely defeat Pedestal and the other convoys and force the island to surrender due to food shortages without actually trying to storm the island Herkules style?

(pick your favorite Luftwaffe POD, The Germans don't screw up the ME210 production, JU88 produced as a level bomber, Wever lives etc... so the Germans can have the extra planes)

Better yet for the Axis could 200 extra planes focused on Malta in 1941 do the job in 1941?
 
Pedestal really was the key turning point - particually without the Ohio the island would either have got sent a do-or-die convoy or become indefensible. The fuel really was the tipping point for its continued survival. The tanker was very close to sinking IOTL - even one more bomb might do it - and without that Malta might be lost. Those extra planes in Pedestal and any re-runs would probably be enough to do it.
 
Mid June 42:



In Operation H
ARPOON, of a convoy composed of six merchant

ships with forty-three thousand tons, only two merchant vessels carrying
a total of eighteen thousand tons of supplies reached Malta.
2 In Operation
V

IGOROUS, out of eleven ships carrying 81,500 tons only two shipswith a total of fifteen thousand tons of supplies reached the island.

Then in August 42 you have Pedestal where only 5 ships made it through.

It seems 200 additional aircraft would might have been enough to sink the remaining ships in those convoys at a time where the Allies were heavily committed other places forcing the island to surrender in September.

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Possible allied countermeasures:​

1) Cancel the Arctic convoys, use the additional escorts here to mount a huge effort.
2) Cancel Guadacanal, Bring an American carrier task force back to the Atlantic to participate
3) A major commitment of British and American submarines from other tasks along with fast destroyers and mine layers to try and bring a trickle of supplies in.​

Maybe Malta wasn't worth all that but Churchill being Churchill, I can't see him allowing the island to fall.​




 
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BlondieBC

Banned
I think the Germans can make it combat ineffective, and have a chance to make it not be used as a military base, cut I don't see Malta surrendering without and actual invasion by the Germans. I could not easily find the amount of food reserves or how much the the island can grow/fish under wartime conditions, but let us assuming it is a small amount. With a population of 270K, you can feed with 135 tons per day (1 pound food) and have people live on even less. I would think the UK would be able to get the little under 100K tons per day needed to feed the island. How much could say a submarine carry stripped of torpedoes and the like? And you can evacuate the civilian population on the return voyages. And then there is a the cold math of sieges. If you are only able to get 35 tons of day of food to the Island, the population will drop to a level to match, and soldiers are fed first.

Now military units engaged in combat take a lot more supplies, so this is why I can see it becoming a non-factor in the war.
 
I think the Germans can make it combat ineffective, and have a chance to make it not be used as a military base, cut I don't see Malta surrendering without and actual invasion by the Germans. Now military units engaged in combat take a lot more supplies, so this is why I can see it becoming a non-factor in the war.

That what I was thinking use subs and the fast minelayers like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdiel_class_minelayer
(which looks like a handy ship BTW)

The Brits could do food only runs to just keep the population afloat, even if you stopped shooting AA and flying Spitfires. However would the Germns just mine all the port entrances and shift to area bombing Valetta to make the civilian population miserable enough to surrender?
 
Woah, never thought of this one...

2) Cancel Guadacanal, Bring an American carrier task force back to the Atlantic to participate

Woah, never thought of this one... if it was for Malta or other reasons what would a 2 carrier task force of US fleet carriers mean in the North Atlantic or even in the North Sea?

Might be worth another post itself.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
That what I was thinking use subs and the fast minelayers like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdiel_class_minelayer
(which looks like a handy ship BTW)

The Brits could do food only runs to just keep the population afloat, even if you stopped shooting AA and flying Spitfires. However would the Germns just mine all the port entrances and shift to area bombing Valetta to make the civilian population miserable enough to surrender?

Did the civilians have guns? It is the people with guns that make the call, and this likely means a call by the Sea Lords or more likely Churchill. I would lean towards not surrendering unless the UK is looking at leaving the war entirely. I think at some point, the soldiers will stop firing and keep the ammo in reserve for the final battle. Once the ammo is low, the Germans would bomb relentlessly. IMO, if there was no effective counter fire for a few weeks/months, the Germans/Italians likely do some type of amphibious airborne operation

Looking at maps, it looks like Malta has lots of good inlets for submarines and smaller surface craft. I would assume there is enough bad weather, you can sneak a few faster craft in. Say you have 40 hours of darkness or bad weather, this means if timed just right, you could be about 300-400 miles away when you started the run. I bet the craft you listed can bring in 100's of tons of supplies per trip and evacuate 2K to 5K per trip. The evacuation is as critical as the food into the Island.

I may be a bit biased using specially designed merchant submarines, but to play with some numbers. It looks like a submarine can make two trips from Egypt to Malta each month. If you use 15 combat submarines, this is one per day. You have to figure density of the food, but if you only carried torpedoes in the tubes and used all the extra space for food you can get say 50 tons of food per trip and evacuate 100 people. It is not a lot, but 3K off island per month helps a lot. And 50 tons of food per day will feed the soldiers, might even give 700-1000 calories per day to the civilians.

I am less familiar with UK cargo planes, but you likely can get some into the area, if you chose. Or you can just load up a freighter and try to ground it on the beach if desperate. It is an ugly scenario for the people of Malta, but taking the POD of the Germans are willing to commit air power but not any soldiers to taking Malta early in the war, I see starvation deaths, but no surrender. It could very well end up like Leningrad, where say 1/3 of the population starves. But would the UK really give up this base to save on civilians deaths. Maybe, but I would be not. So lets take worse case where Germans start the air operations in late 1940 and it runs full effect for 2 years. UK gets 50 tons of food per day to Island by whatever means (and yes this counts the on had reserves and any local production) and the UK gets of 3K per month. Well, we know the evacuation effort will have movies made about it, but the 72K will not have a huge impact at first. Seems like about 3K calories per pound or 6 million per ton base on stuff I read on WW1 food movements. So we are talking 300 million calories per day for population near 300K. This is about a thousand per day. Once the people run through there body fat in a few months, death occur rapidly over then next few months until calories goes above 1500 per person. So about 1/3 will be starved or evacuated within 6 months or so. We know 18K evacuated, so 82K starve.

But this is near worst case, and the Island stills stand, until attacked. If you can sneak just a few freighters through at say 3K tons per ship, you dramatically lower the death tolls. The UK has a sporting chance of doing this even with more air power. Being a critical base, it likely had substantial food reserves. It is heavily populated, but there is still open land to use. Fisherman likely either shore fish or fish in small craft at night or bad flying weather days. Can't really estimate yield, but every fish helps. So my guess in a more realistic scenario, we see 10K-20K excess deaths. The sick, the old, the young. Births will drop to near zero due to low body fat. With many weak people, we will see some epidemics, so many of the say 15K will not actually starve, but will catch thing like the cold or pneumonia which their weakened body can not fight off. And it is not quite Leningrad, it is not so cold. Being in very cold climates means you need a lot more calories to survive especially if fuel sources are bad.

Now weakened soldiers on half rations will not be able to perform as well, and will have very low morale in most cases, so this is why I see the Germans being very tempted to try to force the issue with an infantry attack.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Woah, never thought of this one... if it was for Malta or other reasons what would a 2 carrier task force of US fleet carriers mean in the North Atlantic or even in the North Sea?

Might be worth another post itself.

USN is going to fight this hard, but they could be overruled. It probably deserves a different thread, since changing USA strategy to waiting to 1943 to counter attack has profound changes to the war. We also get into the discussion of unarmed decks in the confined Med Sea. More likely the USA would take over other duties and allow the UK to use it armored carriers for this operation.

The thread author also mentions these German planes being used in 1941, and the worst of the deaths will have happened months before the USA can help with its carriers, so it is likely a mute point anyway.
 
Did the civilians have guns? It is the people with guns that make the call, and this likely means a call by the Sea Lords or more likely Churchill. I would lean towards not surrendering unless the UK is looking at leaving the war entirely. I think at some point, the soldiers will stop firing and keep the ammo in reserve for the final battle. Once the ammo is low, the Germans would bomb relentlessly. IMO, if there was no effective counter fire for a few weeks/months, the Germans/Italians likely do some type of amphibious airborne operation...

Good numbers, makes sense, have to be some bad weather weeks where you could beach a freighter sometimes loaded with easily unloadable goods (carryable crates).

Plus the first evacuees are going to be pregnant mothers, nursing small children and mothers who can least afford to starve.
 
surrender probably not, but starving it to death and then walk in...

BUt while Malta is important - it would not be a turning point of the war.

probably it wiould mean a longer way to Egypt, but spped up the reconquest of Africa (moree allied effort)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Good numbers, makes sense, have to be some bad weather weeks where you could beach a freighter sometimes loaded with easily unloadable goods (carryable crates).

Plus the first evacuees are going to be pregnant mothers, nursing small children and mothers who can least afford to starve.

Well, yes they will be the ones you want out first, but there is the grim reality of hunger. The pregnant mothers will often have a natural abortion, the human body will protect the mother, plus fertility plummets as they lose body fat for non-pregnant women. And young children have a very high death rate. It is likely the UK can't/won't respond fast enough to avoid a heavy death toll here.

surrender probably not, but starving it to death and then walk in...

BUt while Malta is important - it would not be a turning point of the war.

probably it wiould mean a longer way to Egypt, but spped up the reconquest of Africa (moree allied effort)

Agreed. Two hundred planes added to anyone's airforce does not give the Germans a victory. Even WW1 which is a toss up, even a war the CP should have won, 200 planes or tanks does not change outcome of the war unless you have some very unusual butterflies. I can have a lot of fun writing a limited TL with say 3 regiments, but it is limited in either war.

Now if we find these quality German units, it would make an noticeable part of a strategy to drive the UK from the war. But by itself, I would see it having these range of effects. On the low end, the Germans/Italians don't lose whatever ships are directly attributed to airplanes from Malta and any navy ships supplied from Malta. Does anyone happen to know how big this number is? On the high end side, we see Malta suppressed pretty early and we butterfly some of the Sea Battles to strong Italian wins. Butterflies can just work this way. Or we could see an aggressive RN admiral fight a battle very near Malta and take heavy losses. I would not rule out heavy losses of capital ships. North Africa is not going a lot better for the Axis unless we have some odd butterflies. More supplies are not going to give Rommel, much less the Italians the ability to take Alexandria. And being a secondary front, a much better early performance means that the Axis likely send less units to Africa than OTL, and these forces are used in Russia. Russia will just absorb these forces, I am not sure you can even see the changes unless you know the exact dates/details of battles in great detail.
 
(pick your favorite Luftwaffe POD, The Germans don't screw up the ME210 production, JU88 produced as a level bomber, Wever lives etc... so the Germans can have the extra planes)

Better yet for the Axis could 200 extra planes focused on Malta in 1941 do the job in 1941?

If the Germans had 200 extra planes in 1941 or 1942, they will be used on the eastern front and not on a minor front.
 
Now if we find these quality German units, it would make an noticeable part of a strategy to drive the UK from the war. But by itself, I would see it having these range of effects. On the low end, the Germans/Italians don't lose whatever ships are directly attributed to airplanes from Malta and any navy ships supplied from Malta.

Late 41 really seems to be the "glory days" of Malta. Now these submarines and cruisers could operate out of different ports but presumably less efectively (and before September 1941 did operate out of different ports).

Likely since Operation Crusader was a close run thing. Its not unreasonable that extra supply/reinforcement in late 41 allows the Germans to hold. Tobruk probably falls sometime in eaqrly 42.

But without Gazala invading Egypt wouldn't be so tempting (less supplies captured from the British, the British railway wouldn't have been pushed all the way to Tobruk so the Germans wouldn't falsley assume they could is it effectively).

Malta is on the ropes so the Germans invade, with many other Allied naval committments and Malta hobbled, the Axis invade and Malta falls, although British submarines and fast minelayers do score against the Italian Transports making many wonder if taking the already weak island was worth it.

September 1942, well supplied Rommel makes his attempt to take Egypt....

(Well - September 42 is just to late to take Egypt, British too strong and Rommel doesn't have any more armor than OTL, likely line settles at El Aliamen just the same, although the British November 1942 OTL attack may fail)

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OTL:

September 41:. The 10th Submarine Flotillawasformed at Malta with the smaller 'U' class boats which were more suited to Mediterranean conditions. On the 18th, Lt-Cdr Wanklyn in "Upholder" sank the 19,500-ton transports "Neptunia" and "Oceania". Between June and the end of September, submarines sank a total of 49 ships of 150,000 tons. Added to the losses inflicted by the RAF this represented a high proportion of Axis shipping bound for Libya.

October 41: Force K was formed at Malta as a Strike Force to add to the offensive against Axis shipping by submarines and aircraft. Under the command of Capt W. G. Agnew were cruisers "Aurora" and "Penelope", destroyers "Lance" and "Lively".

November 9th - Action off Cape Spartivento, Southwest Italy - A RAF report of an Italian convoy in the Ionian Sea making for North Africa led to Force K sailing from Malta. The convoy consisted of seven transports escorted by six destroyers, with a distant cruiser covering force. Early in the morning every one of the transports and destroyer "FULMINE" were sent to the bottom. Later, while rescuing survivors, destroyer "LIBECCIO" was sunk by submarine "Upholder".
 
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