WI:No Teutons in Prussia

[kasumigenx]

I was thinking the consequences of the Teutons not being invited in Prussia, what would happen to the Prussians if the Teutons remained in Hungary and how will it affect any future prospects of German unification.

[Fox Eating Bamboo]

If the Teutonic Order doesn't show up, I'd imagine the Prussians and other Balts would become Christian anyways at some later date, under pressure from their neighbors the Poles and Russians, or possibly due to Danish or German intervention. Whether that's Catholic, Orthodox, or some other Christianity isn't really a sure thing.

But Prussia would likely be more culturally and ethnically Baltic than German, even if they are later colonized by an external force - a fourth Baltic state alongside Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia. Without a German Prussian state, the unification of Germany cannot happen as it did OTL, because there's no Prussia to unify it.

We have some threads about who else could've done it, so you can get to searching, I suppose, but the political situation would be very different in the 19th Century because of butterflies. Maybe Germany by then would already be unified by, I don't know, Swabians.

[Ledalek]

Originally Posted by Fox Eating Bamboo

Estonia

Estonians are not Balts but Ugro-fins

[kasumigenx]

If the Teutonic Order doesn't show up, I'd imagine the Prussians and other Balts would become Christian anyways at some later date, under pressure from their neighbors the Poles and Russians, or possibly due to Danish or German intervention. Whether that's Catholic, Orthodox, or some other Christianity isn't really a sure thing.

But Prussia would likely be more culturally and ethnically Baltic than German, even if they are later colonized by an external force - a fourth Baltic state alongside Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia. Without a German Prussian state, the unification of Germany cannot happen as it did OTL, because there's no Prussia to unify it.

We have some threads about who else could've done it, so you can get to searching, I suppose, but the political situation would be very different in the 19th Century because of butterflies. Maybe Germany by then would already be unified by, I don't know, Swabians.

These are my thoughts about the topic
-I think Poland would have retained Silesia because the Silesian Piasts had won because the Masovian Piasts would get in a worse scenario because the Prussians would invade Masovia and make the Masovian Piasts weak, I also read that the Jagellonians paid lip service to the Poles in Silesia so I think there would be less anonymity between them and the other Poles.
-I think the Prussians would had converted to Christianity in a later date.

[Zireael]

A christianization of Prussia would still happen around the time it did OTL, but whether it would be Roman Christian or Eastern Christian, it would depend on whether the Poles or the Russians got there first.

More importantly, there would be no 13-years war and no battle of Grunwald in 1410 and no books and films about the Teutonic Order. Oh, and nobody would have remembered Konrad of Mazovia either...

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Zireael

A christianization of Prussia would still happen around the time it did OTL, but whether it would be Roman Christian or Eastern Christian, it would depend on whether the Poles or the Russians got there first.

More importantly, there would be no 13-years war and no battle of Grunwald in 1410 and no books and films about the Teutonic Order. Oh, and nobody would have remembered Konrad of Mazovia either...

That means Poland could lose Mazovia instead of Silesia right?

[Tizoc]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

That means Poland could lose Mazovia instead of Silesia right?

Why? To whom Poland could lose Mazovia anyway?

Now about Prussia - with no Teutonic Order there's still Mazovian expansion north (TO was supposed to conquer Prussia for Mazovia in the first place), and Pomerelia may also expand on the right bank of Vistula (they were doing it OTL before TO arrived and put stop to it; IIRC Malbork was once under Pomeralian control). And of course there's nothing stopping Germans or Danes from coming by the sea. So with no TO involved Prussia would most likely get broke-up and swallowed by neighbouring states.

[Zireael]

Konrad of Mazovia is remembered IOTL for inviting the Teutons to the lands around Chełmno in exchange for something or other, I forgot what.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Tizoc

Why? To whom Poland could lose Mazovia anyway?

Now about Prussia - with no Teutonic Order there's still Mazovian expansion north (TO was supposed to conquer Prussia for Mazovia in the first place), and Pomerelia may also expand on the right bank of Vistula (they were doing it OTL before TO arrived and put stop to it; IIRC Malbork was once under Pomeralian control). And of course there's nothing stopping Germans or Danes from coming by the sea. So with no TO involved Prussia would most likely get broke-up and swallowed by neighbouring states.

To Lithuania, Lithuania would annex Masovia and later Christianizes.