normish

[Marc Pasquin]

there is a movement called anglish within which authors purposefully avoid using words and roots of non-germanic origins. The mild form simply prefer the word of anglo-saxon orgin when there is a synonym and allow other words that have no equivalent while the most extreme form, which concern us here, will replace these later words by reapropriating obsolete anglo-saxon words or creating portmanteau ones using anglo-saxon roots. Although it might appear this way, the extreme form is not promoted by conlangers but rather by people who see themselves as purists. Despite this, the extreme form could probably work well in an ATL where the Norman conquest didn't happen.

Now, lets go a diametricaly opposite direction and ask "What if the Norman language had an even greater influence then in OTL ?". The resulting language, which I'll call Normish for the sake of discussion, would have evolved over centuries so that instead of simply being "french with a funny accent" it would follow mostly an english grammar but it would be the vocabulary which would be almost exclusively latin and greek (via norman) in content.

In practical terms, this would mean we could create it by reverse engeneering english useing the following guidelines:

- Where you have synonyms, the latin or norman originated one would simply replace the anglo-saxon one
- If a norman word was adopted to represent a sepcific aspect of a more generalised concept covered by a word of anglo saxon origin, the former would replace it.
- If a word is of anglo-saxon origin but is phoneticaly and semanticaly (even if tenuously) similar to a a norman or latin one, it could be kept although its meaning might shift.
- When a word is a construct based on a roman or latin root, it could also be kept even if such a construct does not exist in those languages and even if some synonym exist.

To give an example, you could have the following in everyday speech (french is for comparison sake only):

- OTL modern English: You own a big sheep
- Normish: Thou posess one gross* muton
- OTL modern French: Tu possedes un gros mouton

I wonder how far we could go with that ?

* "gross" keeping its sense of "bulk"

[mikegold]

I don't know enough to begin to contribute, but this is absolutely fascinating. It interests me that the "normish" sentence is both completely understandable, and has a slightly archaic feel (somewhere between Mallory and Shakespeare).

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

English with most of the anglosaxon words removed already exists. Its called french

Seriously, it makes sense to make english 'more english' by removing the foreign words as a matter of national pride. German and icelandic did the same thing at different times. It doesnt make a whole lot of sense, but it does make some.

But there is no sense in 'purifying' english of all the nonfrench elements, when youve got real french right across the channel.

[Jurgen Wullenwever]

The adjectives could be placed after the noun, as in OTL "body politic".

"Thou hast an mutton grand."

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

English with most of the anglosaxon words removed already exists. Its called french

Seriously, it makes sense to make english 'more english' by removing the foreign words as a matter of national pride. German and icelandic did the same thing at different times. It doesnt make a whole lot of sense, but it does make some.

But there is no sense in 'purifying' english of all the nonfrench elements, when youve got real french right across the channel.

Fascist Britain claims to be the successor to Roman Britain, purges Germanic words but remains separate from the vile French?

EDIT: Spanish Armada (POD years before, butterfly-handwave most of the problems and keep it more secret) purges Germanic words from English. Of course some Spanish words would make their way into the language in that case.

EDIT2: Spanish conquest, not the Spanish Armada themselves.

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

But there is no sense in 'purifying' english of all the nonfrench elements, when youve got real french right across the channel.

From an AH point of view, I wasn't talking of a group of people ('cept maybe for ASBs) who one decide to purify the language, I was thinking more along the lines of an evolution to ward that, anglo-saxons words falling out of favour to the latin counterpart and such.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Fascist Britain claims to be the successor to Roman Britain, purges Germanic words but remains separate from the vile French?

EDIT: Spanish Armada (POD years before, butterfly-handwave most of the problems and keep it more secret) purges Germanic words from English. Of course some Spanish words would make their way into the language in that case.

Edit? The Southern Netherlands were Spanish for quite a while, but they still speak Dutch, French (, Walloon) and their dialects.
Besides those actions don't make much sense in that era; they wanted that everyone went to the Catholic Mass, not that they spoke the same language.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

Edit? The Southern Netherlands were Spanish for quite a while, but they still speak Dutch, French (, Walloon) and their dialects.
Besides those actions don't make much sense in that era; they wanted that everyone went to the Catholic Mass, not that they spoke the same language.

I know. But if England remained in the control of Spanish kings eventually it might be settled and assimilated.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

I know. But if England remained in the control of Spanish kings eventually it might be settled and assimilated.

I doubt it, like I said it didn't happen to the Southern Netherlands. Simple reasons are too developed and too populous.

[Arachnid]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

I know. But if England remained in the control of Spanish kings eventually it might be settled and assimilated.

Very unlikely, not only would be it be very hard to do but the Kings of Spains ruled a multi-ethnic Empire and had done for a long time, all they wanted was for their subjects to pay taxes and be Catholics beyond that they didn't care. See the lack of effort in Hispanising the Portuguese bits of the America's when Spain and Portugal were in personal union.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

I doubt it, like I said it didn't happen to the Southern Netherlands. Simple reasons are too developed and too populous.

Well England is less densely populated than Flanders, and a territory acquired by conquest would need settlers more than one that was both inherited rather than conquered, and the same religion as the inheriting country.

The Spanish didn't really try to settle Flanders that much. Did they?

Originally Posted by Arachnid

Very unlikely, not only would be it be very hard to do but the Kings of Spains ruled a multi-ethnic Empire and had done for a long time, all they wanted was for their subjects to pay taxes and be Catholics beyond that they didn't care. See the lack of effort in Hispanising the Portuguese bits of the America's when Spain and Portugal were in personal union.

Yeah. But conquering requires settlers more than simply inheriting does. So there was little reason to send settlers to Flanders, Sicily, etc.

[Arachnid]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Well England is less densely populated than Flanders, and a territory acquired by conquest would need settlers more than one that was both inherited rather than conquered, and the same religion as the inheriting country.

The Spanish didn't really try to settle Flanders that much. Did they?

Yeah. But conquering requires settlers more than simply inheriting does. So there was little reason to send settlers to Flanders, Sicily, etc.

Well the Spanish didn't try and send settlers even when the Dutch started revolting and the Thames Valley was very nearly as populated as the Netherlands.

[Turquoise Blue]

How about "Tou", not "Thou?" Tou is more of a mix of thou and tu.

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

How about "Tou", not "Thou?" Tou is more of a mix of thou and tu.

I wonder if the "TH" sound would evolve into either a "t" or a "d" due to norman influence. Those who speak standard french tend to render it as a "z" sound but people in quebec (and I would assume others who speak northern patois) tend to used the formers.