The Bohemian-Polish Union

Instead of Poland and Lithuania forming a personal union as OTL, is it possible that Bohemia and Poland could have united?

Also, what might be some of the effects? Which kingdom is most likely to wind up dominating the union, and might we eventually see either the Czech or Polish languages subsumed into the other? Also, if Poland-Bohemia lasts, it will probably be the most powerful state in the HRE-might the HRE being dominated by a Slavic rather than German polity have some effects?
 
Instead of Poland and Lithuania forming a personal union as OTL, is it possible that Bohemia and Poland could have united?

Also, what might be some of the effects? Which kingdom is most likely to wind up dominating the union, and might we eventually see either the Czech or Polish languages subsumed into the other? Also, if Poland-Bohemia lasts, it will probably be the most powerful state in the HRE-might the HRE being dominated by a Slavic rather than German polity have some effects?

There are 3 POD's
1.Wenceslaus III of Poland and Bohemia survives.
2.The eldest son of Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh survives and marries Elisabeth of Bohemia.
3.John of Luxembourg defeats Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh and gains the Polish throne completely.
 
There are 3 POD's
1.Wenceslaus III of Poland and Bohemia survives.
2.The eldest son of Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh survives and marries Elisabeth of Bohemia.
3.John of Luxembourg defeats Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh and gains the Polish throne completely.

Huh-according to wiki Bohemia and Poland were under personal union from 1300 to 1306. Didn't know that. (My knowledge of medieval Eastern European history is a bit hazy in some places. :eek:)

Anyway, what made said union break up, and how might it last for longer? (From a wiki check, having Wenceslaus III live past 16 seems like a good starting point).

If said union does last, I expect it could eventually take over Silesia and Polonise/Czechify it. Again, assuming it lasts without too many internal problems, Brandenburg, Austria, Saxony, and Prussia all seem like good targets for expansion.

What are the chances such a union could last, and eventually centralize, though? And if it did, where would the capital be-Prague? Warsaw? Krakow?-and who would be most likely to become the "dominant" partner, Czechs or Poles?

Seems like an interesting POD-if Bohemia/Poland lasts and does any serious expansion, I can see it re-slavicising large parts of eastern Germany and Austria.
 
The capital could well remain Krakow-it's fairly centrally located, at least at the start point.

Makes since. The language thing is something I'm still wondering about.

Heck, when exactly did Silesia become German in the first place? And I understand Bohemia's upper classes got somewhat Germanized by around 1400, and that Jan Hus and his movement was partially a reaction against that. When did that start, and could an early 1300's POD avert it?
 
Originally posted by warsfan
If said union does last, I expect it could eventually take over Silesia and Polonise/Czechify it. Again, assuming it lasts without too many internal problems, Brandenburg, Austria, Saxony, and Prussia all seem like good targets for expansion.
What are the chances such a union could last, and eventually centralize, though? And if it did, where would the capital be-Prague? Warsaw? Krakow?-and who would be most likely to become the "dominant" partner, Czechs or Poles?
Seems like an interesting POD-if Bohemia/Poland lasts and does any serious expansion, I can see it re-slavicising large parts of eastern Germany and Austria.

Silesia would have been taken quite quickly, since Silesian dukes usually balanced between Poland and Bohemia. In case of PBU, they would have become PBU vassals.
As far as potential expansion I do not think PBU would have attack Prussia - in fact, I suspect that relations with teh Teuonic Order would have been quite good. If Vencesalus III lives, the Order would have probably never taken Pomerelia.
Initially the "dominant"partners would have been the Bohemians - and that might have destroyed PBU very early. Venceslaus II was rather unpopular in Poland so his son would have needed to gain support of at least a part of Polish leaders. I think it would have been possible - nominate more Poles for important positions (Vencesalus II nominated mostly Germans, even in Bohemia), protect Pomerelia from Brandenburg, etc.
The capital, at least in the beginning, would have been in Prague. At the time Bohemia was stronger and richer. Later, more populous Poland might take over and the capital slowly might be transferred to Cracow, thanks to its better geographical position to rule both kingdoms. Warsaw is out of the question, since it was a small village at the time. IOTL it later became the capital of the PLC since it was closer to Lithuania (and Sweden, in time of Vasas).
As far as expansion goes, I wouldn't be surprised if PBU was interested in Meissen and Lusatia. PBU night have also decide to go against Brandenburg and dominate Pomerania, possibly also part of Austria (Styria?)
 
Makes since. The language thing is something I'm still wondering about.

Heck, when exactly did Silesia become German in the first place? And I understand Bohemia's upper classes got somewhat Germanized by around 1400, and that Jan Hus and his movement was partially a reaction against that. When did that start, and could an early 1300's POD avert it?

Upper Silesia remained Polish and Catholic while Lower Silesia's Poles were mostly Protestants that resisted the Counter-reformation and were casualties of the Deluge and the 30 years war and many of the survivors fled to Southern Poznan where in the government was tolerant of their faith those that stayed were Germanized by the German Settlers sent by Austria and Prussia and by the Germanization campaigns of Prussia, the area of Lower Silesia near Kalisz and Poznan remained Polish that some of it became part of Poland in the Treaty of Versailles.

If said union does last, I expect it could eventually take over Silesia and Polonise/Czechify it. Again, assuming it lasts without too many internal problems, Brandenburg, Austria, Saxony, and Prussia all seem like good targets for expansion.

Silesia was as Polish as Masovia before the Counter reformation.
 
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If the PU of 1300-1306 survives it will most likely include Hungary and create the "Jagello" central european superpower a century and a half early.
 
If the PU of 1300-1306 survives it will most likely include Hungary and create the "Jagello" central european superpower a century and a half early.

I wonder if that could last, though-they'd be juggling three elective monarchies, any of which could put some other dynasty on the throne if it felt too ignored. Surely two would be difficult enough!
 
warsfan said:
And if it did, where would the capital be-Prague? Warsaw? Krakow?

The Czechs would dominate in a medieval union between Poland and Bohemia, and if it gets centralized, the most likely candidate for a capital is Prague, or some significant city in Silesia (more or less mirroring Warsaw, which became the capital of Poland-Lithuania).

Heck, when exactly did Silesia become German in the first place?

In 1200s and 1300s there was an influx of settlers into Silesia, and also Lesser Poland*, they settled mostly in the south of these two regions.

South of the Oder Silesia was soon mostly speaking German, and so were the cities, most of the time. North of the Oder, Slavs were still the majority. This state lasted until Prussia took hold of the province in XVIII, when the language border started to move east.

*German settlers in Lesser Poland were assimilated into the natives, not vice versa - of course after many generations - which is a hint that the same might have happened in at least part of Silesia, if circumstances were different.They were less numerous than the settlers in Silesia, though.

Seraphim74 said:
Later, more populous Poland might take over

Would it be more populous though? Would Silesia be under Prague or under Krakow?

I agree that one of prime targets for expansion is Pomerania, most notably mouth of the Oder.
 
In 1200s and 1300s there was an influx of settlers into Silesia, and also Lesser Poland*, they settled mostly in the south of these two regions.

South of the Oder Silesia was soon mostly speaking German, and so were the cities, most of the time. North of the Oder, Slavs were still the majority. This state lasted until Prussia took hold of the province in XVIII, when the language border started to move east.

*German settlers in Lesser Poland were assimilated into the natives, not vice versa - of course after many generations - which is a hint that the same might have happened in at least part of Silesia, if circumstances were different.They were less numerous than the settlers in Silesia, though.

Actually this was the map of Polish speaking areas in Silesia in the 18th- early 20th century
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Dialekt_śląski_XVIII-XX.PNG
 
Here's a better one:http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/5056/lskpolski.gif

It shows the extent of Polish (Silesian) language in Silesia, and not the extent of nationalities.

Red: Lands populated in whole or in part by Poles.
Blue: Lands populated in whole by Germans (German was used pretty much throughout the province)
Green: Lands populated by Czechs.

When a town icon is split in two (blue-red, green-red), it means that both languages were used.

The red border is the extent of Polish language circa 1800.


I had a better one still, with things like what part of masses had sermons in Polish, and when were Polish language sermons extinguished, but I can't find it now.
 
I wonder if that could last, though-they'd be juggling three elective monarchies, any of which could put some other dynasty on the throne if it felt too ignored. Surely two would be difficult enough!

Elective? With POD before 1370 there's no elcetive monarchy there.
 
Makes since. The language thing is something I'm still wondering about.

Heck, when exactly did Silesia become German in the first place? And I understand Bohemia's upper classes got somewhat Germanized by around 1400, and that Jan Hus and his movement was partially a reaction against that. When did that start, and could an early 1300's POD avert it?

"Germanization" of bohemian nobility was rather superficial. Actually, there was strong anti-german sentiment among bohemian nobility. As for burghers, many of cities in bohemia had czech majority (including ruling class) just before husite revolution (Plzeň, Žatec, Horšovský Týn). After all, even the members of city council, which were killed during The First Prague defenestration, were Czechs.
 
The main problem is going to be juggling the interests and wants of two or three kingdoms - no small feat.

And this may or may not be an issue - Bohemia is part of the HRE, Poland and Hungary are not.

A king ruling over both countries (and "a union of both like PLC" would need some sort of reason for that and for both parties to agree, so why?) or all three counting Hungary is far too powerful to be too impacted by his title as King of Bohemia making him the Emperor's vassal - but he may also be seen in an unfavorable light by the other HRE rulers, for the same reason.

Lots of potential problems here. Not inevitable doom, but it isn't going to be easy and simple.
 
"Germanization" of bohemian nobility was rather superficial. Actually, there was strong anti-german sentiment among bohemian nobility. As for burghers, many of cities in bohemia had czech majority (including ruling class) just before husite revolution (Plzeň, Žatec, Horšovský Týn). After all, even the members of city council, which were killed during The First Prague defenestration, were Czechs.
just some years before habsburgs got bohemia, czech nobility made law that every citizen of Bohemian kingdom need to know czech language. Rather than "nationalistic law" it was created just to help administration
 
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