No Habsburgs

No sure if this idea has been widely discussed here, nothing popped up on a forum search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg#History
What if the Habsburg family died out early on, sometime in the early 11th century?
Obviously this would cause massive butterflies, but would there be another family that would be able to amass a comparable level of power as the Habsburgs? What effect would a less unified Europe have as the centuries passed?

Well obviously it would have massive consequences. The results for Austria would be enormous, modern Austria is territorially completely due to Hapsburgs. Such a POD is early enough that the fall of Byzantium is far from certain so the role the Hapsburgs played in OTL as the bulwark against the Ottomans might not be necessary. Beyond that basically anything is possible.

Arachnid said:

Well obviously it would have massive consequences. The results for Austria would be enormous, modern Austria is territorially completely due to Hapsburgs. Such a POD is early enough that the fall of Byzantium is far from certain so the role the Hapsburgs played in OTL as the bulwark against the Ottomans might not be necessary. Beyond that basically anything is possible.

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Has there ever been a TL attempted on this subject?

wiking said:

Has there ever been a TL attempted on this subject?

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Not as far as I'm aware.

i believe the Luxembourgs were quite prestigious back then, maybe they could replace the Hapsburgs?

Now that would be an interesting TL.

Arachnid said:

Well obviously it would have massive consequences. The results for Austria would be enormous, modern Austria is territorially completely due to Hapsburgs. Such a POD is early enough that the fall of Byzantium is far from certain so the role the Hapsburgs played in OTL as the bulwark against the Ottomans might not be necessary. Beyond that basically anything is possible.

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Didn't the Babenbergs control a large percentage of modern day Austria before they died out? I could of sworn they did but can't track down a map to check the extent offhand. All it takes is for them to not die out and then Ottokar II of Bohemia can't seize it, only for it Rudolph of Habsburg to later give it to his family after defeating Ottokar in the war over his objections to Rudolph being crowned Holy Roman Emperor. With the duchy still ruled by the Babenbergs Rudolph will have to go looking elsewhere to try and find something for his descendants.

PoeFacedKilla said:

i believe the Luxembourgs were quite prestigious back then, maybe they could replace the Hapsburgs?

Now that would be an interesting TL.

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Well, no Habsburgs means perhaps that Ottokar II (Premysl) wouldn't lose to Rudolf Habsburg at Marchfeld and maintains control over Austria and Styria. Of course Ottokar was Czech, but still in the HRE, so I doubt that those areas would become Czech in language and culture. Still, the Premyslid dynasty wouldn't die out due to battle and murder and might end up becoming for a time the Habsburg analogue, as it held all of Austria except Tyrol, parts of Hungary, Bohemia and Moravia, and Poland west of the Vistula and lesser Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WenceslausIImap-en.png

At least for Austria this seems to be the most likely result of no Habsburgs, unless the Luxembourgs or some other dynasty takes the HRE throne and tried to grab Premyslid lands.

The alternate HRE Emperor without Rudolf Habsburg is the wildcard. Maybe it is Ottokar? He was a candidate for the throne, as was Alfonso X of Castille.

Its interesting to think that the Premyslid dynasty was nearly a Habsburg analogue, just like the Luxembourgs, but neither managed to survive thanks to the Habsburgs.

Tyrol might end up part of Bavaria while the rest of Germanic Austria becomes a rebellious Czech analogue in a Slavic dominant analogue of the Habsburg empire.

PoeFacedKilla said:

i believe the Luxembourgs were quite prestigious back then, maybe they could replace the Hapsburgs?

Now that would be an interesting TL.

Click to expand...

My planning tl is that the Habsburgs do emerge, so theres something for you, its not ready though

But yeah, someone should do a non-Habsburg TL

Simon said:

Didn't the Babenbergs control a large percentage of modern day Austria before they died out? I could of sworn they did but can't track down a map to check the extent offhand. All it takes is for them to not die out and then Ottokar II of Bohemia can't seize it, only for it Rudolph of Habsburg to later give it to his family after defeating Ottokar in the war over his objections to Rudolph being crowned Holy Roman Emperor. With the duchy still ruled by the Babenbergs Rudolph will have to go looking elsewhere to try and find something for his descendants.

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http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/AUSTRIA.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Austria#Babenberg_Austria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_Austria

Having them survive would stymie the Habsburgs and give rise to an interesting variable in medieval history.

We have this timeline
Lantern Empires

I created this timeline but I created this as an adoptable timeline.
What Habsburgs?

wiking said:

Well, no Habsburgs means perhaps that Ottokar II (Premysl) wouldn't lose to Rudolf Habsburg at Marchfeld and maintains control over Austria and Styria. Of course Ottokar was Czech, but still in the HRE, so I doubt that those areas would become Czech in language and culture. Still, the Premyslid dynasty wouldn't die out due to battle and murder and might end up becoming for a time the Habsburg analogue, as it held all of Austria except Tyrol, parts of Hungary, Bohemia and Moravia, and Poland west of the Vistula and lesser Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WenceslausIImap-en.png

At least for Austria this seems to be the most likely result of no Habsburgs, unless the Luxembourgs or some other dynasty takes the HRE throne and tried to grab Premyslid lands.

The alternate HRE Emperor without Rudolf Habsburg is the wildcard. Maybe it is Ottokar? He was a candidate for the throne, as was Alfonso X of Castille.

Its interesting to think that the Premyslid dynasty was nearly a Habsburg analogue, just like the Luxembourgs, but neither managed to survive thanks to the Habsburgs.

Tyrol might end up part of Bavaria while the rest of Germanic Austria becomes a rebellious Czech analogue in a Slavic dominant analogue of the Habsburg empire.

Click to expand...

Isn't that a bit exaggerated? King of the Romans Rudolf of Habsburg managed to defeat king Ottokar II of Bohemia and seize the Austrian Lands as vacated fiefs back for the Empire. After that Rudolf had to negotiate with the high nobility of the empire to be able to grant the duchies Austia & Styria to both his sons. Carinthia, Carniola and the Windic March went to the Meinhardinger (counts of Tyrol & Gorizia), but with a succession treaty.
That wasn't the end of the Premyslid dynasty, but it was an end of the ambitions of Ottokar II.
The last male Premyslid, Wenceslaus III, a grandson of Ottokar II, was murdered, during the aftermath both the Meinhardinger and Habsburgs tried to claim the throne of Bohemia, but ultimately the Luxembourgs prevailed and established themselves as a great house and the more or less ruling dynasty of the HRE. During this period the Habsburg had to focus on their dynastic powerbase (Hausmacht) and they did manage to gain Carinthia, Carniola, Tyrol and the Windic March in this period.
A Habsburg, Albert, managed to marry the heiress of the last Luxembourg ruler (Sigismund) his daughter Elisabeth, but that hadn't much to do with the survival of that dynasty either.
The Habsburgs, like the Wittelsbachs, Luxembourgs and Premyslids,especially after they gained Austria & Styria just played their part in imperial politics.

To answer the original question, if Rudolf would never be elected king or he doesn't manage to keep a part of the Austrian Lands for his house, then this could answer the question too.
Sure the Habsburgs could survive as a regional house (maybe even be raised to dukes (duke of Habsburg), like the counts of Wurttemberg), but wouldn't be the great house we know IOTL.