Largest possible Hungary
- Thread starter Berus
- Start date
Depends on your interpretation, as the dominant part of a dynastic union with say, Poland, it could be very large indeed. Directly absorbing surronding land into Hungary could be more difficult but if Ottoman advance could be avoided then northern serbia and Wallachia could be absorbed by conquest without undue difficulty.
If you're talking about pre-Habsburg Hungary, its two geopolitical and territorial high points were under these two guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Corvinus
The single downside to Matt's reign was that he lost control of the entire Dalmatian coast, effectively ending up with a landlocked Hungary. But other than that, he held out against the Turks very effectively, brawled a lot with the Poles and had a strong influence over the Czech lands. BTW, you are probably familiar with the fact that he even conquered Vienna and parts of Lower Austria, annecting them to Hungary afterward (though for barely a few years before he croaked).
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Well, the Kingdom of Hungary + the Kingdom of Croatia + Bosnia+ Wallachia + loose personal union with either Bohemia or Poland. That sounds like what Uber Hungary could look like.
Alternate History
Banned
Louis I held Poland and Matthias Corvinus held Bohemia, but neither held both at the same time. In addition, Louis I's hold over Poland was very weak as the Polish lords wanted a Polish king desparately, while Corvinus had problems with the Hungarian magnates who resented his strong royal power and did everything to undermine his regime. Also, both were personal unions, so the Kingdom of Hungary was no larger than before or after their reigns.
Hungary was doomed from the Tartar invasion of 1241 onwards. The King was forced to give away too much power to the magnates to reconstruct his country, and this weakened the Hungarian state very strongly - it effectively became unable to compete against any of the major powers surrounding it. After 1526 it was even more screwed as the Ottoman invasion wiped out much of the Hungarian population while leaving the nationalities relatively unharmed, introducing national strife into the Carpathians soon after the Ottomans were kicked out. If you want a bigger Hungary, you have to reduce the destructive effect of the Tartar invasion, and thus ensure that royal power stays strong. (And having the House of Árpád not die out in 1301 would help too.)
Hungary was doomed from the Tartar invasion of 1241 onwards. The King was forced to give away too much power to the magnates to reconstruct his country, and this weakened the Hungarian state very strongly - it effectively became unable to compete against any of the major powers surrounding it. After 1526 it was even more screwed as the Ottoman invasion wiped out much of the Hungarian population while leaving the nationalities relatively unharmed, introducing national strife into the Carpathians soon after the Ottomans were kicked out. If you want a bigger Hungary, you have to reduce the destructive effect of the Tartar invasion, and thus ensure that royal power stays strong. (And having the House of Árpád not die out in 1301 would help too.)
MSZ
Banned
A century earlier, in the XIV century, by Louis I.
But that was the Hungarian King holding the thrones, not the Kingdom being larger by itself. I suppose if some Hungarian King wanted, he could incorporate the Kingdom of Croatia into Hungary at a whim. Also, assuming Hungarians win at Mohacs and remain independent and a great power, they could realistically expand into Serbia or Romania, with the Danube being the natural border between it and Turkey (if Hungary was lucky to significantly defeat Turkey that is).
wolf_brother
Banned
If we're going to dismiss personal unions, then "Great Britain" was really only an English empire 
Its one thing to critically examine the amount of actual control Budapest exercised over some of the more far-flung portions of the empire under either Louis or Matthias, but to say that because the territorial limits of Hungary itself didn't expand that 'those don't count' is just being pretty asinine.
To the OP, a Hungary that holds Bohemia and Poland at the same time is probably your best bet. Really though what you're looking at here is for the Hungarians to take the place of the Hapsburg Austrians ITTL. You might get a Hungary that rules Cisleithania, Bohemia, Poland, Serbia, Romania, and all of the Dalmatian coast, but in typical feudal form its unlikely to be a centrally controlled empire in the same sense as say, oh, Song-era China, and would be more like the HRE in governance. That isn't to say that you can't pull an imperial, centrally-controlled Hungary out of this, but its going to take time and plenty of butterflies. Thankfully with a POD so far back you'll have the opportunity for both. If you're just going for sheer size in terms of territory controlled, in some form or another, by Budapest though, then give Matthias a surviving (legitimate) heir. As much as this board loves Louis, I just don't think his situation is as advantageous as that of Matthias', so I'd say the best POD would be for Catherine of Poděbrady and her child to live.
Its one thing to critically examine the amount of actual control Budapest exercised over some of the more far-flung portions of the empire under either Louis or Matthias, but to say that because the territorial limits of Hungary itself didn't expand that 'those don't count' is just being pretty asinine.
To the OP, a Hungary that holds Bohemia and Poland at the same time is probably your best bet. Really though what you're looking at here is for the Hungarians to take the place of the Hapsburg Austrians ITTL. You might get a Hungary that rules Cisleithania, Bohemia, Poland, Serbia, Romania, and all of the Dalmatian coast, but in typical feudal form its unlikely to be a centrally controlled empire in the same sense as say, oh, Song-era China, and would be more like the HRE in governance. That isn't to say that you can't pull an imperial, centrally-controlled Hungary out of this, but its going to take time and plenty of butterflies. Thankfully with a POD so far back you'll have the opportunity for both. If you're just going for sheer size in terms of territory controlled, in some form or another, by Budapest though, then give Matthias a surviving (legitimate) heir. As much as this board loves Louis, I just don't think his situation is as advantageous as that of Matthias', so I'd say the best POD would be for Catherine of Poděbrady and her child to live.
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If we're going to dismiss personal unions, then "Great Britain" was really only an English empire
It pretty much was.
Alternate History
Banned
Do you know the difference between a personal union, a real union and a political union? Hungary was only in personal unions with Bohemia and Poland, while Great Britain was a political union.
wolf_brother
Banned
Ah, how I've missed this game. If you can't argue against an opponents' position, its always best to simply insult his character - and the easiest way to do that is to question one's intelligence. How original!
For your information Britain was a personal union from the 1603 Union of the Crowns under James VI/I until the 1800 Acts of Union under George III (or, arguably, until the 1707 Acts of Union under Anne).
Alternate History
Banned
I didn't insult your intelligence... guilty conscience, perhaps? What I did do was argue against your position - in fact, I argued against it even before you posted your position.
Before which it all wasn't even called Great Britain.
That is easier said than done as the exact realtions between Hungary and Croatia prior to the Habsburg takeover were a very complex thing that are very hard to understand or give name to and anyone trying to tell you that something was 100% like he is saying usually has some agenda behind his statements.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I also asked the question of whether or not Hungary could switch roles with France, and having the succession problems solved would do the trick. Since Louis I only had two daughters, who now have Jadwiga marry Ladislaus of Naples and he can become the King of Hungary?
scholar
Banned
As large as you want to make it.
Realistically, having most of the Balkans and Poland is at the limit of non-ground breaking and earth shattering butterflies. Depending on where the Magyars end up you could have a Hungary the size of Russia with significantly larger inroads in Europe, but it wouldn't be "Hungary" as we know it.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
"Hungary" in a sense that it would be as large as Russia could be named Magyaria.