Austro-Hungarian colonial empire

[oshron]

hey, all. i thought i'd explore some possibilities for an Austrian/Austro-Hungarian colonial empire from after the loss of Habsburg territories in the New World and elsewhere. basically, what colonial territories in the Old World and the Pacific could Austria/Austria-Hungary gain from 1804 onwards, and under what circumstances could they be acquired (and perhaps lost later on). to make things a little more interesting, let's say that Germany never unifies ITTL as well, so Austria is the premier German-speaking power in Europe.

obviously, the Nicobar Islands come to mind, but i also recently learned that Austria tried to gain the Solomon Islands but failed. Tianjin is another possibility, as they tried to acquire that territory following the Boxer Rebellion, but what i'd really like to look at is the possibility of Austrian colonies in Africa, and where they could be located. remember, the POD for this would be in 1804 at the earliest (though not necessarily in that year)

[Monty Burns]

AH colonies are difficult since they have so limited access to the open seas. Since your POD is after 1804, change the Congress of Vienna so that the Hapsburgs keep the Austrian Netherlands.

Without such a major POD, have them reform economically and promote trade, maybe through Venice. Let them seek alliance with Britain. Have them succeed in their colonial adventures you already cited. I think Somalia and Libya could be possible Austrian colonies. Or the Congo?

[Shtudmuffin]

Maybe acquiring colonies would be easier for the Austrians if they possessed naval bases in the Mediterranean?

[oshron]

well remember, Austria had a fair portion of the Adriatic coast straight through from 1804 to the dissolution of Austria-Hungary

[Alex Richards]

You might be able to get an Austro-Hungarian Libya off the Turks, but it's a push.

[ImperialVienna]

As much as I hate to say it, before one can even talk about colonies, especially as one moves toward and into the mid Nineteenth Century, one needs to have a massive change in personalities within the Imperial Court. There's just no way Franz Joseph is ever going to launch a major colonial venture unless he ends up head of a much more cohesive land (read Greater Germany but that's not to the OP's point). I think even Ferdinand Maximilian is pushing it. The exception being maybe the Holy Lands. Perhaps if the Ottomans completely collapse, underlying Habsburg Catholicism could drive the Austrians/Austro-Hungarians to establish some kind of state centered on Jerusalem, but they needed international/British (at least) support.

[yourworstnightmare]

Austria could perhaps buy the Nicobars from Denmark. Being allowed to keep them would require being buddies with Britain though. Actually being buddies with Britain is probably necessary for Austria to become a colonial power. Better have the master of all navies protecting your back.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

The trouble is, the colonies wouldn't be an Austro-Hungarian venture, they'd have to be either Austrian or Hungarian. How would a joint colonial office between the two nations work? They'd have to agree on policy, economics, administration, etc. And can one constituent really embark on such a venture without the other?

Unless they pulled a Leopold and grabbed a colony under the personal ownership of the emperor. But, given the personality of the emperors (as ImperialVienna says) this is unlikely.

I once wrote a short timeline for a map in which Austria-Hungary reforms after 1848 into something more federal, and becomes a neutral state (grabbing the Congo when nobody could agree on who should get it) but that wasn't really plausible.

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

The trouble is, the colonies wouldn't be an Austro-Hungarian venture, they'd have to be either Austrian or Hungarian. How would a joint colonial office between the two nations work? They'd have to agree on policy, economics, administration, etc. And can one constituent really embark on such a venture without the other?

Unless they pulled a Leopold and grabbed a colony under the personal ownership of the emperor. But, given the personality of the emperors (as ImperialVienna says) this is unlikely.

I once wrote a short timeline for a map in which Austria-Hungary reforms after 1848 into something more federal, and becomes a neutral state (grabbing the Congo when nobody could agree on who should get it) but that wasn't really plausible.

Lol, an Austro- Hungarian colony would probably neither be Austrian nor Hungarian, but administered by the people the Habsburg hire to rule there (probably Dutch, Belgian, German and American adventurers).

[oshron]

well i guess what's really meant by "Austro-Hungarian" here would be more on the lines of "people from Austria-Hungary, period". Austrian Congo is pretty interesting. in the earlier drafts of my ASB ATL, i honestly kinda copped out and gave them a bunch of the German colonies (since Germany was disunited in those drafts) so, for example, there was Austrian Equatorial Africa (Cameroon, Chad, CAR), Austrian Southwest Africa (Namibia) and Austrian East Africa (Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi)

personally, though, i'm really liking the concept of an Austrian Somalia, Austrian Congo, and Austrian Solomon Islands

[Iori]

I did a map a year or so back based on the idea of the Austrian Empire reforming (different people and existing people developing differently), crushing the Hungarian nobility thus forming a unified state and winning a successful war against Prussia/Germany and gaining land from them that ended-up, for various reasons being very interested in colonialism and went on to colonize a good chunk of Africa (though nowhere else except Socotra).

I suppose it was'nt exactly very plausable, but I would'nt consider it ASB either.

Here's a map of it before the ATL Great War that expanded its colonial holdings (Light purple are Protectorates);

[Shtudmuffin]

Originally Posted by oshron

well remember, Austria had a fair portion of the Adriatic coast straight through from 1804 to the dissolution of Austria-Hungary

I know, but I mean something directly placed in the Mediterranean (EG Cyprus), where they can base ships. That way, they won't have to worry about the Italians shutting them off in the Adriatic in case of a war.

[lukedalton]

Originally Posted by oshron

well remember, Austria had a fair portion of the Adriatic coast straight through from 1804 to the dissolution of Austria-Hungary

Yes but when Venice was inglobated in the Kingdom of Italy the only real port of the entire empire was Trieste, the other were of much more limited use and capacity, and as WWI demonstrated, the entire empire can be cut of by the sealane with success.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

Yes but when Venice was inglobated in the Kingdom of Italy the only real port of the entire empire was Trieste, the other were of much more limited use and capacity, and as WWI demonstrated, the entire empire can be cut of by the sealane with success.

There's two way around that: first, as already stated, the Hapsburgs keep their part of the Netherlands in the Congress of Vienna. Second, the Austrians expand more on the Balkans. Even short of AH getting Thessaloniki, if they take Montenegro and Albania they'll have decent ports to expand and the very coast that prevents any Italian blockades of the Adriatic.

To get them even interested in this, though, I guess you'd need much more overseas trade by AH early on and a much earlier unification of Italy threatening that profitable trade so that AH must react. IOTL, they had the idea of dominating Italy right up to the point when Italy defeated them...

[Orko]

I don't think access to the seas is that much of a problem. The Belgians have even less access to the ocean and yet they manages to acquire a colony many times their own size.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Originally Posted by Orko

I don't think access to the seas is that much of a problem. The Belgians have even less access to the ocean and yet they manages to acquire a colony many times their own size.

No, Leopold manages to acquire for himself the entirety of the Congo because the other powers can't decide on who should get it, and then the Belgians confiscate it from their king due to his heinous human rights abuses (which didn't really get any better).

[lukedalton]

There's two way around that: first, as already stated, the Hapsburgs keep their part of the Netherlands in the Congress of Vienna. Second, the Austrians expand more on the Balkans. Even short of AH getting Thessaloniki, if they take Montenegro and Albania they'll have decent ports to expand and the very coast that prevents any Italian blockades of the Adriatic.

But doing the latter mean basically war with the Ottoman Empire and more possible friction with Russia

[Tyr]

I don't think access to the seas is that much of a problem. The Belgians have even less access to the ocean and yet they manages to acquire a colony many times their own size.

The Belgians have very good sea access, Antwerp has always been one of Europe's major ports.
Though yes, as said the Belgians didn't exactly manage to aquire the Belgian Congo. They got it through a complete fluke of history as a humanitarian measure after their king's wonderful foray into the world of capitalism unchained.

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

No, Leopold manages to acquire for himself the entirety of the Congo because the other powers can't decide on who should get it, and then the Belgians confiscate it from their king due to his heinous human rights abuses (which didn't really get any better).

The Belgians got it loads better. The Belgian Congo gets a lot of bad press because people confuse it with the Congo Free State. The Belgian Congo was a pretty typical African colony. The Free State was sub-North Korea in terms of 'times and places in history I would like to be born'.

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by Tyr

The Belgians got it loads better. The Belgian Congo gets a lot of bad press because people confuse it with the Congo Free State. The Belgian Congo was a pretty typical African colony. The Free State was sub-North Korea in terms of 'times and places in history I would like to be born'.

And a typical African Colony means quite a terrible place to live if you happen to be a African conscripted to forced labour, but yes, The Free State beats everything in just how What the Fuck evil it was.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

I know, but I mean something directly placed in the Mediterranean (EG Cyprus), where they can base ships. That way, they won't have to worry about the Italians shutting them off in the Adriatic in case of a war.

I seem to recall reading that during the Congress of Vienna the Austrians were intially offered Corfu (or another minor Mediterranean island) and they refused. I based an ATL on this and did get an Austrian alliance with Abyssinia.