Nazi Victory Views of Italians

[Clandango]

There is no particular point of divergence, butterfly, or the like. I am interested in hearing whatever information you have on how the Nazis viewed Italians before, during, and would view them after WWII. What level of racial classification would they get, what areas would be deemed more Germanic, and who would be on par with Slovaks or Berbers?

[jmc247]

Nazi racial classifications were made up bullshit to dehumanize people they wanted an excuse to kill, steal from or enslave. Most not all of Hitler's inner circle knew it as well. Considering Italy was an Axis major you do the math.

[The Kiat]

Originally Posted by jmc247

Most not all of Hitler's inner circle knew it as well.

Most of them weren't even Aryans. That's bad when you fail the tests you invent.

[jmc247]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Most of them weren't even Aryans. That's bad when you fail the tests you invent.

The closest they came was probably that morbidly obese guy half passed out in the corner with a needle in his arm.

[The Kiat]

Originally Posted by jmc247

The closest they came was probably that morbidly obese guy half passed out in the corner with a needle in his arm.

And to think he use to be some sort of hot-shot ace (well, can't remember if he actually had five kills, but he was a pilot in the Great War).

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Most of them weren't even Aryans. That's bad when you fail the tests you invent.

Apparently a woman pointed that out to Himmler at a party while the Gaulieter of Danzig thought the same. Himmler passed though, as Himmler's tests had blue eyed brunettes as one of the upper echelons.

[Jape]

Well if we're talking a 'Fatherland' style victory (ignoring probability) I can see Italian failings in geopolitics being a much bigger headache than any racial quibbles.

Benny had dreams of empire across the Med, I can see Arab nationalism ruining whatever spoils he grabs and the Germans wont be too keen on propping them up. My bet is either the Allies back the Arabs forcing Germany into the Middle East to support a losing battle for Suez and the oil fields (a pro-Nazi Shah will help) or if they're lucky back the Arabs themselves and tell Italy to back off.

If we go for a more Cold War style scenario with Overlord broken, atomic stalemate etc. perhaps Italy becomes our Germany - with the Social Republic in the north a thoroughly puppeted showcase for National Socialism. Once Mussolini passes away there's plenty of radicals in the Fascist Party to pick as willing cooperators. It would be interesting to see how that would work out. The south is by far poorer, has the Mafia, the monarchy (any post-war referendum without the north will lead to an overwhelming majority backing Umberto II) and crucially, the Pope. Also the Allies will be happy to pump it up for their own showcase but southern Italy isn't West Germany. I imagine tourism will lead the way over heavy industry.

A surviving RSI would have to tread very carefully around Catholicism. Plus there's the Red Brigades, similar problems to the post-war Baltic States and Poland will arise, god knows what the SS will do to 'help' their ally given the luxury of peacetime.

[Thegn]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

And to think he use to be some sort of hot-shot ace (well, can't remember if he actually had five kills, but he was a pilot in the Great War).

H. Goering was credited with 22 air victories in WW1. When v. Richtofen was killed, Goering was appointed to command v. Richtofen's famous squadron, the "Flying Circus". v. Richtofen was 'way ahead of his time, de-emphasizing individual dogfighting tactics in favor of "wingman" tactics, where 2 aircraft engage at once, with one covering the other one's blind spot. v. Richtofen's innovative tactics made his Flying Circus the foremost squadron of aces in the world. (Ironically, these are the same tactics that C.L Chennault was run out of the Army Air Corps in the 1930s for championing, & which later made his Flying Tigers in China one of the most successful squadrons of WW2, even flying inferior Curtiss P-40/Bs against the legendary Japanese Zero.)

As soon as Goering was appointed to command the "Flying Circus" he ordered a return to individual dogfighting, with the result that the squadron was soon decimated, with a success ratio that was much more similar to those of the other squadrons in the war. Goering's claim to fame came at the very end of the war. When ordered to surrender his squadron he ordered his pilots to fly to the designated Allied airfield & to land so hard that they buckled the landing gear of their aircraft.


--Thegn.

[LongVin]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

And to think he use to be some sort of hot-shot ace (well, can't remember if he actually had five kills, but he was a pilot in the Great War).

Herman had 22 kills in WWI

[The Kiat]

Originally Posted by Thegn

H. Goering was credited with 22 air victories in WW1.

Originally Posted by LongVin

Herman had 22 kills in WWI

Good Gravy, what happened to him in the interwar years? I doubt he could even fit into the cockpit by 1939.

[Falecius]

Originally Posted by Jape

Well if we're talking a 'Fatherland' style victory (ignoring probability) I can see Italian failings in geopolitics being a much bigger headache than any racial quibbles.

Benny had dreams of empire across the Med, I can see Arab nationalism ruining whatever spoils he grabs and the Germans wont be too keen on propping them up. My bet is either the Allies back the Arabs forcing Germany into the Middle East to support a losing battle for Suez and the oil fields (a pro-Nazi Shah will help) or if they're lucky back the Arabs themselves and tell Italy to back off.

If we go for a more Cold War style scenario with Overlord broken, atomic stalemate etc. perhaps Italy becomes our Germany - with the Social Republic in the north a thoroughly puppeted showcase for National Socialism. Once Mussolini passes away there's plenty of radicals in the Fascist Party to pick as willing cooperators. It would be interesting to see how that would work out. The south is by far poorer, has the Mafia, the monarchy (any post-war referendum without the north will lead to an overwhelming majority backing Umberto II) and crucially, the Pope. Also the Allies will be happy to pump it up for their own showcase but southern Italy isn't West Germany. I imagine tourism will lead the way over heavy industry.

A surviving RSI would have to tread very carefully around Catholicism. Plus there's the Red Brigades, similar problems to the post-war Baltic States and Poland will arise, god knows what the SS will do to 'help' their ally given the luxury of peacetime.

Red Brigades appeared after 1974 IOTL, so they won't be a problem for any Fascist Italy, not in any way similar to OTL form.

[Arachnid]

But the ingredients for far-left terrorism are there. The Italian Communists may have been beaten down by Benny but they were still around.

[Clandango]

Might they still be seen as junior partners of the Axis or merely as junior members on par with Croatia?

[Andreas]

I'm not sure, but I think that the Nazis viewed Italians as part of the "corupt" South. They pointed to the "mixture" of the Italians (especially the southern) with arab and berber, and even Albanian blood, but since they needed them as allies and the Nazi Party had a Fascist heritage, they did not demonstrate the former racist points. Nevertheless, after the Italian capitulation in 1943, they behaved towards the Italians that did not align themselves with Musolini in a manner completely inapropriate for "class-A" or "class-B" Europeans: e.g. in Corfu, where the Italian guard raised a brief defense, after the occupation of the island, the Germans simply killed thousands of Italian soldiers and officers without the "honour" of a "proper" execution- they gathered them and bombed the soldiers and put the officers in sacks and drowned them in the sea. The same happened in Cephallonia.

[Clandango]

Now we are talking. How do you view the basic arrest or killing of anyone trying to stay or leave South Tyrol?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Clandango

Now we are talking. How do you view the basic arrest or killing of anyone trying to stay or leave South Tyrol?

if you are refering to me, I honestly do not understand what you 're asking... I guess you're talking about the fascist violence against the Germans of South Tyrol during the 1920s. If that's right, I won't defend the Italians, and I have no reason to do so, since for the time we 're talking about, both the Italians and the Germans were conquerors for Greece and harmed my grandpas and grandmas, and I have no knowledge about what happened in Tyrol at the time.
I mentioned what happened in an effort to contribute to the conversation of this thread.

[lukedalton]

Originally Posted by Clandango

Now we are talking. How do you view the basic arrest or killing of anyone trying to stay or leave South Tyrol?

Regarding South Tyrol, Benny and Adolf signed a treaty that facilitated the emigration of native people from the italian side to the German side, so at the time there were less germans there (and there were a lot of rumors of 'transferring' the people there in Africa, so persistent and widespread that Mussolini himself stepped up and deny that).
Regarding the italian racial profile in a nazi victory world...well is very difficult to say, after all the nazi regime was a little more elastic in his definition when he needed people for the fight so much will depend on the political situation.

[Clandango]

The Operational Zones for the northeast of Italy, which where to be extended to also include Venice and perhaps Lombardy. Not too much information to find on them, though there was a fair bit of violence against Italian soldiers, Germanic folk who did not leave for Germany before, and anyone looking suspicious. Apparently they reclassified most of Istria to be Germanizable instead of Italian, as well. I do wonder about what would have happened to the Slovenes, though.

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Good Gravy, what happened to him in the interwar years? I doubt he could even fit into the cockpit by 1939.

Shot in the leg during the Beer Hall Putsch. The wound never healed properly, and he became dependent on opiate painkillers. Codeine pills - he didn't inject morphine or heroin.

Between the pain-enforced inactivity and generally getting older, he put on all that weight.

He acknowledged it, though, and told the following joke on himself.

A man walking along a street in some German city sees a group of urchins acting a bit odd. They are marching back and forth, saluting, and so on. He stops and says, "What are you doing, boys?"

One of the urchins answers, "We're playing Nazi Party. We even have all the Nazi leaders!" He points to three piles of dog poop, and says "See, there is Goebbels, there is Hess, and there is Himmler."

"Very good," says the man. "But aren't you missing somebody important? Where is Goering?"

"Oh," says the urchin, "we couldn't do him. We don't have enough dog poop."

[Max Sinister]

Göring also did cocaine. Explains a lot.

And at some point, Mussolini himself stated that in case of a nazi victory, Italy would be nothing more than an allied province of Germany, and would have to accept that, because otherwise the nazis would turn Italy into a defeated colony, like other defeated countries.