Could the Church accept the Reformation?

[Boom22]

Just an idea that popped into my head one day. I'm not sure how it would come about (I only have a broad understanding of the period not a more detailed one, working on it) but what if the Church and Papacy accept some (or all I suppose however unlikely) of the changes Luther suggested. Instead of the Church splitting it would well reform to rectify the grievances put forth by Luther.

I know I'm being vague hope I got my point across I'll clear things up should they arise. I'm just wondering if this is possible at all.

[Sian]

Given that Luther basicly said that the Pope was invalid since the Papacy was a cesspool of corruption and taking money for things they're unable to sell (indulgences, which was one of the primary financial incomes) ...

I doubt it ... only way i see it possible is to kill off Leo X while Luther is stewing, and manages to get a moderate into the chair (no clue how likely that is either)

[Shawn Endresen]

Leo WAS a moderate. He figured if he ignored Luther, this Protestant silliness would fizzle out. Bad call.

Luther expressed serious doubt about the utility or importance of a united and organized Christian church. There's really no way for the RCC to swallow that point, and accommodation with him is highly problematic. A hardass on St. Peter's throne who had understanding and friends in north Germany could have ended Lutheranism with sword and fire, but a diplomatic solution is probably impossible.

Calvinism, on the other hand, could be reconciled with the RCC (see Cornelius Jansen, Jansenism). It might even be possible for Calvin to insist that he was still Catholic (despite the obvious). As could England going Anglican.

[FDW]

From my limited knowledge, I'm going to say no. The Reformation was as grounded in Social and Political affairs as it was Economic affairs, and had building up for some time before hand.

[Strategos' Risk]

Originally Posted by Shawn Endresen

Calvinism, on the other hand, could be reconciled with the RCC (see Cornelius Jansen, Jansenism). It might even be possible for Calvin to insist that he was still Catholic (despite the obvious). As could England going Anglican.

Whoa, really? So Pope Calvin alluded to in the His Dark Materials/Golden Compass trilogy isn't so crazy after all...

[Emperor Constantine]

What if the Pope eliminated the worst of the Church's offenses? I mean the selling of indulgences, buying and selling of offices, stuff like that. The best chance to have a moderate elected would be after Leo X' dies and instead of Adrian VI The main question, in my opinion anyway, isn't if the Pope would accept the Reformation but would the Protestants accept the Church responding by partial reform ( I can't see a full reform without severely damaging the Church's power i both the papal states and in the rest of Europe.)

[FDW]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

What if the Pope eliminated the worst of the Church's offenses? I mean the selling of indulgences, buying and selling of offices, stuff like that. The best chance to have a moderate elected would be after Leo X' dies and instead of Adrian VI The main question, in my opinion anyway, isn't if the Pope would accept the Reformation but would the Protestants accept the Church responding by partial reform ( I can't see a full reform without severely damaging the Church's power i both the papal states and in the rest of Europe.)

Indulgences were kind of considered a necessity by the church at the time, since they were running short on money.

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by FDW

Indulgences were kind of considered a necessity by the church at the time, since they were running short on money.

Lets not focus on just the indulgences. I mean what if the church got rid of their worst offenses. The indulgences were just the most well known.

[general]

The indulgences were the flashpoint, but pretty much everyhting Luther said in the first few years ( not sure how long, away fro my books - i think 5-10) were actually fairly mainstream in the Caatholic Church of the time.Everybody knew that changes were needed, but each time they got to the point, entrenched interests screamed so loud, that Rome backed off.
It is worth bearin gin mind that some of the biggest opposition to the reforms of Trent camne from Catholic interest groups, to the degree that its decrees had to be sneaked into some Catholic areas to be promulgated.( I make no parallels to Vatican II and today).
If you can persuade the non-Papal groups benefiting from the system a sit stood to back down...

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by general

The indulgences were the flashpoint, but pretty much everyhting Luther said in the first few years ( not sure how long, away fro my books - i think 5-10) were actually fairly mainstream in the Catholic Church of the time.Everybody knew that changes were needed, but each time they got to the point, entrenched interests screamed so loud, that Rome backed off.
It is worth bearin gin mind that some of the biggest opposition to the reforms of Trent came from Catholic interest groups, to the degree that its decrees had to be sneaked into some Catholic areas to be promulgated.( I make no parallels to Vatican II and today).
If you can persuade the non-Papal groups benefiting from the system a sit stood to back down...

OK so maybe we get a Pope with a better backbone. One that says " Screw the opposition I'm the Pope, God's Vicar on Earth and its up to me!!!!" or something like that . What we needed was a combo of Leo X's moderatism and Julius II's warrior-ism. A second option was a earlier council of Trent in direct response to Martin Luther so circa 1519 -1525.

[Avitus]

Luther essentially called the priesthood not only corrupt, but unnecessairy, meaning that if the pope accepted it, the priesthood would likely have been disbanded. As far as I see it, weather by design or accident, Luther's ideas are incompatible with Catholicism, because if you get rid of the priesthood, the sacraments, the church government, and the belief in any doctrine not explicitely stated word for word in the Bible, then it would be pretty much unrecognizable as Catholicism. Catholicism that accepted Luthers teachings would be Lutheranism, but possibly with Marian devotions. Even if the pope did fully buy into Lutheranism, he would be forced to give up his position as pope and as a priest, so smeone else would just be declared pope as soon as the previous pope had converted and simultaneously given up the chair.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

1 luther started out much milder than he later became. If the vatican had been prepared to reform and negotiate, they might have been able to find common ground.

2 a bureaucracys natural reaction to underlings making a fuss is to squelch them. Thus they were unlikely to meet luthers demands.

3 multiple reform movements in the church had come and gone. Some the church suppressed, some they coopted. Cissternians and franciscans were two such movements reforming the monastic orders. Of course, after a couple hundred years, each of those turned into an establish structure, prey to many of the faults of its predecessors.

4 following on from the previous point, the only way to get lasting reform in a hierarchical structure like the church is competition. The rcs, the cofe and the state lutheran churches all got way to complacent and cozied up to power structures. Speaking as a canadian anglican, the nonestablishing of the CofE in canada was a great benefit.

5 once you have a printing press, and everyone can read the word of for themselves, you are highly likely to get intellectual and religious fer.ent, especially if you couple that with a rising middle class.

In europe of the 1500s, i dont think reformation is avoidable.