Earliest possible A380 type plane?

[varyar]

I know nothing about aviation technology (engines turn on, plane goes up, plane comes down!) but for some reason, the A380 intrigues me with its hugeness and novelty.

Given OTL technology, what's the earliest such a plane could have been built? Ever-reliable Wikipedia tells me McDonnell Douglas made some progress on a similar design (MD-12) in the 1990s - is that about the earliest that it could have been done, or could Boeing (or whoever) have built something that big back in the 70s, or even earlier?

(As far as AH goes, a double-decker airliner screams Nazi mega-project, doesn't it?)

[Bureaucromancer]

Assuming you mostly mean a double deck aircraft (if you just mean size, well look at things like the Spruce Goose and Do X, just making an aircraft big isn't THAT hard and can be done very early if there's a need) Boeing seriously considered building the 747 as a full double decker, so 1969 definitely (although the versions of that that were essentially stacked 707 fuselages, so double deck but narrowbody and no bigger than OTL overall). That said, there is really no impediment to very large aircraft much earlier, its really a question of having the need for something of the size. On which note, are you aware of the Deux-Ponts? Big flying boats were also headed toward being double deck, though none that went into service had full second decks. If you're willing to look beyond civilian airframes there's also the C-124 from 1949.

At the end of the day its not a technology question as one of why you would. Generally double deck aircraft don't make sense without a pretty specific reason for the second deck given the complications involved in cargo handling and the often awkward size or shape the fuselage ends up with. The early designs tended to be combi freighters using the second deck to be able to segregate passengers and freight, the OTL 747 initially only had the bulge to get the flight deck clear of the nose door, aerodynamics dictating something big enough to cram a few passengers in. The A380 was about keeping the aircraft length within reason - see the 777-300 and A340-600 for the kind of problems involved in handling very long aircraft.

tl;dr: You could get them as soon as aircraft of any size are practical. The challenge is making a decker makes more sense than a standard design.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Also, look up the bristol brabazon, huge for its time.

Really wacko ... bel geddes airliner number 4

[DD951]

Or how about the Boeing 377 Stratoliner, & its military transport versions, the C-97/KC-97, which was more or less a double-decker design that plopped a second fuselage on top of the lower half of a B-29/50 fuselage, with the first flight of the C-97 prototype occurring in 1944 & that of the 377 in 1947

[Bureaucromancer]

Originally Posted by DD951

Or how about the Boeing 377 Stratoliner, & its military transport versions, the C-97/KC-97, which was more or less a double-decker design that plopped a second fuselage on top of the lower half of a B-29/50 fuselage, with the first flight of the C-97 prototype occurring in 1944 & that of the 377 in 1947

I thought about that one, but to me it has more in common with a modern (widebody anyway, narrobodies still have pretty small holds; the 707 started off using a very similar fuselage profile, and while all new as built was actually a double bubble) airliner design (with a full length, pressurized and rather high ceilinged cargo level than what we would think of as a double deck (which in all fairness is structurally closer to triple deck). Even the C-97 didn't really operate in a fashion that used both decks for passengers, though it was primarily a cargo aircraft in any case. If the lower deck lounge qualifies it as a double decker than the L-1011 also qualifies (wasn't common, but a few airlines had one, a lot more had galleys) as do a number of modern aircraft that can have lower level galleys. If you consider crown space used for storage or crew accommodation things get even fuzzier.

[superjames1992]

Well, the heaviest aircraft on Earth to this day is the Antonov An-225 and it first flew in 1988.

Technology isn't so much the problem as is will.

[Delta Force]

There were plans to make a 724 seat aircraft based on the An-22 in the 1960s.

[Xavier]

I'm pretty sure that Boeing originally planned for the 747's upper deck to extend all the way to the tail.

[Michel Van]

Around 1990 Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas made Study about "Super Jumbo".

McDonnell-Douglas MD-12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-12

At Boeing there were two fraction at work,
One wanted a extended 747 with two decks, other prosed "New Large Airplane" what look quite like the twin brother of MD-12.

1991/92 things change in US aerospace industry.
McDonnell-Douglas management had Financial concerns about the High R&D cost of U$4 Billion on MD-12,
and they had high cost on C-17 program.
but as the Taiwan Aerospace left the MD-12 project, MCD had no resources to complete the project.
in 1993 Boeing management chose not to pursue development of "New Large Airplane", focusing instead on updates to the 747.
with money they save to that, they went shopping trip on the US aerospace industry
and buy aerospace section of Rockwell International and McDonnell-Douglas


but WI the Taiwan Aerospace stay and other source of financing was found for MD-12 ?
The Aerospace Industry would look today complete different as in OTL !!!
Boeing had use the Money on R&D of "New Large Airplane" and had not bought up McDonnell-Douglas
it more likely that McDonnell-Douglas do join-venture (or Merger) with Lockheed for more Production capacity in California
Lockheed-McDonnell-Douglas instead of Lockheed-Martin ?

around 1999 the first MD-12 and Boeing 848 "Super Jumbo" would make test fly, Airbus is still in R&D on A380.
in 2000 the first Super jumbos will goes in service
wen the first A380 makes his test flight in 2005, the US Super Jumbos would be in service for about five years
and Airbus will face a shrinking market for "Super Jumbo", because the Dominance of McDonnell-Douglas/Lockheed and Boeing
It can even so worst, that Airbus management could stop the A380 program because "to late on the market, to make profit"

On Technical Problems A380
that is because Airbus had no experience in very large heavy Aircraft
McDonnell-Douglas, Lockheed and Boeing have that experience: C-17, C-5, B-52, 747

[sharlin]

I suppose you could turn something like the AN-124 into a passenger plane with multiple decks but it would no doubt be a very expensive passenger plane.

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by sharlin

I suppose you could turn something like the AN-124 into a passenger plane with multiple decks but it would no doubt be a very expensive passenger plane.

why take so a small airplane ?
there is Antonow AN-225, and they had look into use of as a passenger plane for USSR,
but the Soviet union implode in 1991.

by the Way
Lockheed look in also in use of C-5 Galaxy as "Super Jumbo"
were 800 Passenger are in containers, who are slide-in the cargobay.
but in 1968-1975 the C-5 run in serious trouble and Lockheed face bankruptcy...

[abc123]

Soviets had a project of similar aircraft, Sukhoi KR-860...
But I doubt that they could finish it earlier than A-380.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860

[varyar]

Huh, I had no idea - thanks, all!

I want to move to the timeline where the Airliner Number 4 exists now.

[Brother Stormhammer]

Earliest possible A-380 type aircraft? My bet is 1949 or so. OTL, the Convair XC-99 first flew in 1947. It was a cargo version of the B-36 Peacemaker, and I believe Pan-Am actually did some interior layout studies of a passenger version (the Convair Model 37).

http://www.air-and-space.com/xc99.htm

[varyar]

Oh, and I have a follow-up! Are there, by chance, any books devoted just to the subject of superjumbos?

[Michel Van]

Originally Posted by Brother Stormhammer

Earliest possible A-380 type aircraft? My bet is 1949 or so. OTL, the Convair XC-99 first flew in 1947. It was a cargo version of the B-36 Peacemaker, and I believe Pan-Am actually did some interior layout studies of a passenger version (the Convair Model 37).

http://www.air-and-space.com/xc99.htm

the XC-99 had place for 400 passenger (20 years later, fist Boeing 747 had 452 passenger)
But the cabin pressure system failed regular on XC-99 prototype, so USAF say no to C-99 project.

I look on Civilian Lockheed C-5 and it "Flying in a box" proposal
this was a German company Krupp concept.
each container take 72 person in it (plus they Luggage)
8 Container are Push in C-5, true the open nose in two rows with in total 576 passengers.
the Idea was to use the C-5 Cargo version with out great Modification.

At Lockheed they had the L-500 Civilian cargo version of C-5
There had idea that passengers could take there Car in the Cargobay
it had place for 56 big Cadillacs or 108 smaller cars.

Next to that were a 3 deck C-5 study for 800 passengers, but i don't know how Lockheed called it.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Brother Stormhammer

Earliest possible A-380 type aircraft? My bet is 1949 or so. OTL, the Convair XC-99 first flew in 1947. It was a cargo version of the B-36 Peacemaker, and I believe Pan-Am actually did some interior layout studies of a passenger version (the Convair Model 37).

http://www.air-and-space.com/xc99.htm

In the mid 1950s, probably in the campaign for statehood, the Hawaii newspaper Honolulu Advertiser carried a multipage insert about the 'Hawaii of the Future' - I can't remember the exact title - but it featured several drawings of scenes about Honolulu in the near future and one of them was of tourist arriving at Honolulu Airport and disembarking from aircraft that looked like the XC-99.

The post war economy simply support such large aircraft unfortunately. One reason they did not succeed was that all the thousands of cargo planes, like the DC-3, that were built for the war where just sold on the open market after. I've got the newspaper article somewhere about my house.

[modelcitizen]

Vickers had planned a double-decker VC10, http://www.vc10.net/History/DDVC10_page5.html

Edit: I think that the prospect of that had been in the 1960s.

(VC10 info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC10#cite_note-6 and http://www.vc10.net/index.html )

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by varyar

...

(As far as AH goes, a double-decker airliner screams Nazi mega-project, doesn't it?)

English-speaking person, keeping a straight face: "That's a big Fokker, isn't it?"

German companion: "Oh, yah."

[DD951]

Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer

I thought about that one, but to me it has more in common with a modern (widebody anyway, narrobodies still have pretty small holds; the 707 started off using a very similar fuselage profile, and while all new as built was actually a double bubble) airliner design (with a full length, pressurized and rather high ceilinged cargo level than what we would think of as a double deck (which in all fairness is structurally closer to triple deck). Even the C-97 didn't really operate in a fashion that used both decks for passengers, though it was primarily a cargo aircraft in any case. If the lower deck lounge qualifies it as a double decker than the L-1011 also qualifies (wasn't common, but a few airlines had one, a lot more had galleys) as do a number of modern aircraft that can have lower level galleys. If you consider crown space used for storage or crew accommodation things get even fuzzier.

Hmm, from some poking around, it looks like it might have been possible to make a good chunk of the 377's lower level into a second passenger cabin at the expense of a large part of the cargo hold if someone had an operational requirement for it, but I don't think anyone tried developing the airframe in that direction.

Another possibility from the immediate post-war era could have been the Lockheed R6V Constitution, which first flew in 1946, though it was considered a failure- the USN felt it was too expensive to operate, while Pan Am ultimately decided it was too big & underpowered to be practical even though the design had originally been proposed to them as something that would exceed the performance & capacity of the Constellation, effectively killing the proposed airliner version; the 2 prototypes in USN service also turned out to have too short of a range & prone to engine overheating; a turboprop motor being developed by Wright might have salvaged the design but never got outside the prototype stage