WI/AHC: European metropoles relocate elsewhere?

[Mumby]

Now this is just an idea I cooked up.

IOTL, by the time of the Napoleonic Wars, the weight of imperial power in the Portuguese Empire was shifting towards Brazil. In fact when Portugal was conquered the Empire was run from Rio and for a time, the metropole of a European empire had been relocated elsewhere. Well, what if the American Revolution never took place? Eventually the weight of many European empires would begin shifting to their colonies eventually. Spain and Portugal seem likely contenders to eventually shift their base of operations especially considering that the capital of the Spanish Empire would actually be more central. Well, how many European empires may have shifted their centre and what repercussions could this have had for Europe and their empires as a whole. For example, with a Spanish Empire based in Mexico City, would the Dia de los Muertos eventually become an empire wide celebration?

[Corder]

I have always thought that if the ARW is butterflied away it would only be temporary unless the weight of power shifted from London to the colonies, slowly or otherwise. What would this take? How about a successful or partially successful Napoleonic invasion ala Portugal.

I always like the idea of a confusing American nobility - Duke of Richmond (VA), the Earl of Loudon (Heights), Earl of Manchester (NH), Duke of Albany (NY) etc.

[Badshah]

It's an interesting idea...but I think the sheer instability in New Spain would prevent Spain from doing so.

A British Empire run from Boston is an interesting idea, though...

[Minchandre]

Originally Posted by trollhole

It's an interesting idea...but I think the sheer instability in New Spain would prevent Spain from doing so.

A British Empire run from Boston is an interesting idea, though...

On the other hand, wouldn't Spain probably be a lot more stable if instead of some collection of viceroys running things, you had the King of Spain himself sitting in Mexico City (or elsewhere?), issuing commands and sending his best people to take care of problems, and allowing a response time of less than a year.

[Ganesha]

This is easier with some empires than others. It really depends on the center of economic and military power.

Britain's OTL empire, for example, would never be based out of anywhere other than London. Because it was such a loosely controlled empire, any other place wouldn't have the economic mass needed to control the rest of the territories.

I agree that Portugal and Spain are the only realistic possibilites.

Cheers,
Ganesha

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

This is easier with some empires than others. It really depends on the center of economic and military power.

Britain's OTL empire, for example, would never be based out of anywhere other than London. Because it was such a loosely controlled empire, any other place wouldn't have the economic mass needed to control the rest of the territories.

I agree that Portugal and Spain are the only realistic possibilites.

Cheers,
Ganesha

Depends. Considering that a lot of their colonies were also administered by the HEIC, Britain could reasonably relocate to someplace like Boston or New York....

[Ganesha]

Originally Posted by trollhole

Depends. Considering that a lot of their colonies were also administered by the HEIC, Britain could reasonably relocate to someplace like Boston or New York....

Sorry, I wasn't clear. In an ATL, it's possible, though unlikely. Without major butterflies, however, it's not an option. Britain needs to keep the American colonies for the metropole ever to move, and that's very hard to do.

Cheers,
Ganesha

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

Sorry, I wasn't clear. In an ATL, it's possible, though unlikely. Without major butterflies, however, it's not an option. Britain needs to keep the American colonies for the metropole ever to move, and that's very hard to do.

Cheers,
Ganesha

It still could keep the American colonies...there's always that possibility. Remember, it was Benjamin Franklin's fault that the British had close to no idea what was going on in the colonies....so if you sack him, you solve quite a few problems.

[Kishan]

If the Thirteen Colonies had not rebelled, but had remained part of the British Empire, in course of time the center of gravity of the Empire would have shifted from Europe to North America. With the OTL U.S.A. and Canada in the Empire the majority of the population, ie. the white population would be in North America and the British Isles would be a minor part of the Empire. In such a situation the Imperial Capital could be relocated from London to New York or some other North American city.

[strangeland]

The Portuguese Royal Family relocated to Brazil during the Napoleonic Wars. It wouldn't be too hard to have Brazil become the focal point of the Portuguese Empire in the years afterwards, and have the Empire's capital permanently moved from Lisbon to Sao Paulo or Rio.

[Mumby]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

Sorry, I wasn't clear. In an ATL, it's possible, though unlikely. Without major butterflies, however, it's not an option. Britain needs to keep the American colonies for the metropole ever to move, and that's very hard to do.

Cheers,
Ganesha

I don't think its hard for Britain to retain the American colonies. They were close culturally if not geographically, and it would not have been hard for more sensible heads to prevail.

[Socrates]

The problem with moving it to the American colonies is that there would be a fight about which one gets it. If it happened I imagine there would be two capitals and parliament would meet for six months in Londom and six months in New York or wherever. Still, we should bear in mind that the US capital never moved West with expansion there.

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by Socrates

The problem with moving it to the American colonies is that there would be a fight about which one gets it. If it happened I imagine there would be two capitals and parliament would meet for six months in Londom and six months in New York or wherever. Still, we should bear in mind that the US capital never moved West with expansion there.

But the point being is that the west never really passed the east as a commercial and industrial hub. While Boston and New York would pass London in that regard, same as Rio passed Lisbon. I'd still think the capital would be Boston in such a case, with New York still becoming the premier city, but Boston becoming the centre of power.

[Arcvalons]

The Spanish Royalty would not move to Mexico that easily, they didn't seem to like it (or any other colony) very much. It was really just inferior to the motherland from their point of view, consider how most of the population there were Criollos and not Españoles Peninsulares.

Maybe if there was a far more liberal monarch at the time, or if they were absolutely forced to (a Spanish republic in the early 19th Century?).

[willbell]

Originally Posted by Kishan

If the Thirteen Colonies had not rebelled, but had remained part of the British Empire, in course of time the center of gravity of the Empire would have shifted from Europe to North America. With the OTL U.S.A. and Canada in the Empire the majority of the population, ie. the white population would be in North America and the British Isles would be a minor part of the Empire. In such a situation the Imperial Capital could be relocated from London to New York or some other North American city.

Except the ARW would probably just mean that British North America would declare independence peacefully several decades later, just as Canada did in 1867. I doubt you will be able to stop them leaving peacefully.

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by willbell

Except the ARW would probably just mean that British North America would declare independence peacefully several decades later, just as Canada did in 1867. I doubt you will be able to stop them leaving peacefully.

Why? There would be no precedent. It could just as easily become a direct part of the United Kingdom, which results in the shift of power.

[Minchandre]

Originally Posted by willbell

Except the ARW would probably just mean that British North America would declare independence peacefully several decades later, just as Canada did in 1867. I doubt you will be able to stop them leaving peacefully.

...Unless they had the Imperial capital. Though that might just lead to Great Britain fulling out of the union instead, which I guess would be essentially the same thing at the end of the day.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Interestingly, english really doesnt have word that means ,,metropole,,. Translating french works, one might see ,,metropolitan france,, but its not really a concept that almost even exists in english.

[Iori]

I honestly don't see a capital of a British Empire ever moving from London unless it was literally razed to the ground.

Another thing to, if the 13 Colonies had'nt rebelled, they'd never have become as populous; America's population ballooned so much because of what it represented at the time, if America remains British then their will never be that big motivation to move to America specifically, rather they'll just either move around Europe or disperse more equally among the various colonies in the America's and South Africa and Oceania.


Now, to provide an answer to the original question, here's a scenario;

The Kalmar Union continue on or some other Nordic Union after it replaces it, uniting most or all (IE with or without Finland) of the Nordic Realm, Nordholm as we'll call it (because it sounds cool, even if it's not correct) then goes on to begin colonizing North America, taking all of the OTL Norther and Eastern Canadian Artctic Islands, the Maritimes and parts of
Québec and New England.

Eventualy after they settle it and establish borders with the other colonizers the population in Vinland gradually starts to equal and eventually surpass the population of Scandinavia itself, eventually resulting in reforms, among which are moving the capital to Reykjavík so neither side feels like they're being treated as less important, since it would sit roughly half way between the European and North American halves of the Empire.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by trollhole

It's an interesting idea...but I think the sheer instability in New Spain would prevent Spain from doing so.

Carlos and Fernando would have preferred unstable New Spain to imprisonment in France - but they got caught by Aranjuez mutiny.

WI they succeed in escaping? Where in Indies will they go?