Ireland alt or Ireland Wank?

Hey there, relatively new to the forum but have been reading Alt timelines for a few months now (still slogging through the chaos timeline) and I was thinking about an alternate timeline I'd want to try out regarding Ireland with the POD being the death of Brian Borumba, or, more specifcally, how he doesnt die at the battle of Clontarf and more to the point, the butterfly effects the world would suffer after a failed Norman invasion of a united Irish kingdom as a result of Brian founding a lasting high kingship dynasty into the middle ages.

Problem being I discussed this with a few friend and pretty much all of them have agreed any Ireland alt history would be a wank on par with the gamiest of Europa Universalis III playthroughs even though my alt timeline doesnt make Ireland especially powerful, so, naturally, I was disheartened from attempting for worry of not being regarded as serious. (it doesnt help I also have an ASB timeline regarding Ireland and the fact Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria are all real continents BASED on an EU3 timeline but that is definitely a wank so I am not as worried about that)

So I'm starting this thread to discuss issues raised, and butterfly concerns that should be addressed if I go through with this timeline and whether or not the entire thing is just an exercise in wank no matter what we try, or if perhaps there would be a better POD then Brian Borumba.

Also yes I am an Irishman myself.

How in heaven's name is a united Ireland invariably a wank?

It barely qualifies as a rival for England on a good day.

Elfwine said:

How in heaven's name is a united Ireland invariably a wank?

It barely qualifies as a rival for England on a good day.

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Its apparently a wank because in this timeline Ireland wouldn't get conquered by the Normans and instead gets feudalised later. This is where the potential wank starts because my friends regard Ireland not getting conquered as unlikely as cheese sprouting wings.

You could make both if you have the time to. Also, as Elfwine said, a united Ireland isn't a wank, but its still an interesting scenario though.

A united Ireland would be a Portugal at best - small country with big scary neighbor who has a headstart on New World exploration due to geography.

Inquisitor Galloglasses said:

Its apparently a wank because in this timeline Ireland wouldn't get conquered by the Normans and instead gets feudalised later. This is where the potential wank starts because my friends regard Ireland not getting conquered as unlikely as cheese sprouting wings.

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Pshaw. I wouldn't say Ireland being totally successful vs. the Normans is realistic, but remaining ultimately independent (at least for a time) is quite feasible.

XanXar said:

You could make both if you have the time to. Also, as Elfwine said, a united Ireland isn't a wank, but its still an interesting scenario though.

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Its why I began seriously consider writing the timeline. A united medieval Ireland kingdom is not a match for England, but would have a higher manpower then scotland. And an auld alliance between Scotland and France in which Ireland joins (either through a royal union with scotland or on its own terms) could have serious butterfly implications for the rest of history if England gets neutered.

If for no other reason a United Ireland would have a negative butterfly impact, more through what it prevents its neighbour from doing rather then by anything it does itself.

Elfwine said:

Pshaw. I wouldn't say Ireland being totally successful vs. the Normans is realistic, but remaining ultimately independent (at least for a time) is quite feasible.

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Again, think Portugal. Castile united with Aragon then became part of the Habsburg Empire, but somehow Portugal was able to remain independent, barring the 60 year Iberian Union.

SavoyTruffle said:

A united Ireland would be a Portugal at best - small country with big scary neighbor who has a headstart on New World exploration due to geography.

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This is almost always what Ireland players become in EU3 experiments. Though I find the Idea of Ireland having a massive land grab of North America to be a tad wanky, even if it is feasible provided England was busy elsewhere.

Inquisitor Galloglasses said:

This is almost always what Ireland players become in EU3 experiments. Though I find the Idea of Ireland having a massive land grab of North America to be a tad wanky, even if it is feasible provided England was busy elsewhere.

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Doesn't have to be North America, though of course Portugal had the advantage of being so close to Africa.

And they can make ridiculous land claims a la New France - though of course France has more leverage.

SavoyTruffle said:

Doesn't have to be North America, though of course Portugal had the advantage of being so close to Africa.

And they can make ridiculous land claims a la New France - though of course France has more leverage.

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Would make sense though. Even though Irish kings would be interested in African resources, they are most likely to colonize (as in, actually put their people in) territories with similar climates so North America is the most likely candidate. Probably New England and New Foundland for starters.

How about making the Norman conquest enough harder in the north and west that they stay out of Ireland longer? How about an allance with the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which was not yet part of Scotland.
I think this could be a very interesting TL.

altwere said:

How about making the Norman conquest enough harder in the north and west that they stay out of Ireland longer? How about an allance with the Kingdom of Strathclyde, which was not yet part of Scotland.
I think this could be a very interesting TL.

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That could be doable. I could make the norman conquest of Ireland into a protracted war where the normans gain and lose territories all the time.

Actually the discussion about American colonies has given me the idea of Scottish and Irish kings racing for North America, the colonies of which breakdown into a patchwork of celtic successor kingdoms.

SavoyTruffle said:

Again, think Portugal. Castile united with Aragon then became part of the Habsburg Empire, but somehow Portugal was able to remain independent, barring the 60 year Iberian Union.

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Precisely. And Ireland is better positioned to remain independent given the fact there's no land border (and amphibious invasions are "fun" even if you control the sea).

Elfwine said:

Precisely. And Ireland is better positioned to remain independent given the fact there's no land border (and amphibious invasions are "fun" even if you control the sea).

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Pretty sure if the Irish whittle down the 1st Norman invasion, Norman England would be unlikely to launch a second one for some time, doubly so if evidence comes to light that the Papal Bull was fraudulent (based on current disputes of its validity nowadays)