AHC/WI: The Angevin Empire survives longer

[Xachiavelli]

I was reading up on the Angevin empire, which eventually split into what would become the United Kingdom and France. I was wondering, how could you keep the personal union together, and what would the effects of that be?

My thoughts are that considering the fact the both Britain and France went on to be major world powers during the colonial era, a nation that is basically a combination of the two would surely become a hyperpower.

My best guess is that they'd probably take all their OTL colonies, plus be able to hold on to America so would likely gain all of OTL USA, as well as a good deal of territory in OTL Northern Mexico, and of course Cuba, Liberia and The Philippines.

Also, if there was a way to keep this union together, their empire could likely survive into the present day, seeing as there would be no world wars (Who would dare attack such a massive empire?) so no decolonisation. We'd also likely be hearing the term 'pax Angevina'.

What do you think? Am i talking bollox here, or could this logically happen?

[Xgentis]

Personal union? There was no real personal union.

[Xachiavelli]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Personal union? There was no real personal union.

Okay, well let's assume it holds together somehow. I'm assuming it's possible.

[Elfwine]

There was the Count of Anjou (+ Tourraine, and Maine) also being Duke of Normandy, overlord of Brittany, Duke of Aquitaine, and King of England, which I suppose is a personal union.

Get rid of Philip Augustus. Whatever else you do, you have to get rid of him - either POD him out of existence in the first place, make him a babbling idiot, kill him off, whatever,

But to simply add OTL France and OTL England together, and then magnify for them not fighting each other, is not how it would look at all.

Xachiavelli: There wasn't a personal union between England and France in the first place except for Henry VI, and that lasted just long enough for him to be replaced.

[SavoyTruffle]

I think that a feudal collection of holdings (which didn't even technically report to Henry II directly) would not hold.

Elfwine, don't forget the Plantagenets being an ambitious bunch in general.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

I think that a feudal collection of holdings (which didn't even technically report to Henry II directly) would not hold.

Elfwine, don't forget the Plantagenets being an ambitious bunch in general.

Oh aye. But that can be either productive (how do you think the House of Hapsburg rose?) or destructive (where to start?).

You might be able to find some system to handle the deficiencies of a collection of feudal holdings, at least for a while, but facing a French king able and determined to break it up is not going to end well no matter what.

[Xachiavelli]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

But to simply add OTL France and OTL England together, and then magnify for them not fighting each other, is not how it would look at all.

Then what would it look like? I'm assuming it would become the dominant world power, at least for a time.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Xachiavelli: There wasn't a personal union between England and France in the first place except for Henry VI, and that lasted just long enough for him to be replaced.

I didn't say that there was, i just said that the Angevin Empire split into what would become England and France

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

Then what would it look like? I'm assuming it would become the dominant world power, at least for a time.



I didn't say that there was, i just said that the Angevin Empire split into what would become England and France

You should read this if you want a personal union between France, Scotland and England it's an epic timeline even if it does not enter your criteria.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=193869

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

Then what would it look like? I'm assuming it would become the dominant world power, at least for a time.

A headache to try and rule over, for starters. Ruling just England is not for lightweights, adding the fun that can only be when an independent ruler and a vassal at the same time - and additionally ruling territories that don't mesh with each other at all except for sharing your personal rule - is for great kings or Total War players.

I didn't say that there was, i just said that the Angevin Empire split into what would become England and France

Which would kind of require the Angvein Empire to contain France instead of merely several feudal holdings in France - which the Angevin ruling them was just as much a vassal for as the more docile (in most of this period) duke of Burgundy, say.

So if you didn't say it, you said something indicating you thought France was ruled by the Angevins, which is not true.

[Xachiavelli]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

You should read this if you want a personal union between France, Scotland and England it's an epic timeline even if it does not enter your criteria.
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=193869

That's a cool TL, but i'm only really interested in a surviving Angevin empire.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

That's a cool TL, but i'm only really interested in a surviving Angevin empire.

I don't think it is possible. That it hold few years longer maybe but that's about it.

[SavoyTruffle]

Only way it holds longer than Henry II's lifetime is if his sons aren't a squabbling lot.

[Xachiavelli]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

Only way it holds longer than Henry II's lifetime is if his sons aren't a squabbling lot.

Perhaps killing or incapacitating John would help.

I imagine the Lionheart could hold this empire together if need be, and probably expand it a bit too.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

Perhaps killing or incapacitating John would help.

I imagine the Lionheart could hold this empire together if need be, and probably expand it a bit too.

Expand it where?

Richard was only really concerned with Aquitaine, and to a lesser extent Normandy and Anjou - and expanding in France would fighting his overlord (Philip) in a way that puts him blatantly in the wrong (as Richard has no claims to press).

[Remicas]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

Perhaps killing or incapacitating John would help.

I imagine the Lionheart could hold this empire together if need be, and probably expand it a bit too.

Wasn't he trying to do exactly that before being killed by a crossbow bolt ?

[Xachiavelli]

Originally Posted by Remicas

Wasn't he trying to do exactly that before being killed by a crossbow bolt ?

Yeah, but moving said bolt a couple inches to the left isn't exactly ASB. He could live longer.

[SavoyTruffle]

Richard would piss off the English nobility by not paying them heed, fwiw.

[Velasco]

Have John Lackland married Alice of Savoy and succeed her father as Count.

Richard is then suceeded by Arthur, whose sister Eleanor can marry King Louis of France and unite the Angevin and Capetian crowns.

[Yorel]

I personnally tend to think that the Angevin Empire can't survive because Henry II himself hadn't planned it for to remain as one entity: his original plan was to split it between his sons. If I am not mistaken, Henry the Younger was to receive his father's inheritance (Anjou, Maine, Tourraine, Normandy and England) while Richard the Lionheart would have received the inheritance of his mother (Aquitaine & Poitiers). Geoffrey had been married to Duchess Constance of Britanny so that it would become a vassal of England. As for John, he was originally Lackland because his father hadn't planned him in the partition despite the fact John was his favorite son: he eventually received the Lordship of Ireland.

It is only luck that had the "Empire" last until 1204. Henry the Younger died in 1183: Richard became thus heir to all of his father's heirloom. Geoffrey could have opposed this, but he died accidentally in 1186 and his son was far too young to ask for anything. As for John, he was simply to weak to oppose Richard: his plotting with Philip Augustus stopped immediately after Richard's return OTL. When Richard died in 1199, without legitimate children (he had a bastard son), John became his heir. Philip Augustus used the rights of Arthur, Geoffrey's son and John's nephew, to claim the French possessions of the Angevin. We all know what happened after that: Arthur disappeared from the face of the world somewhere between 1203 and 1204 (likely killed on orders of John) while Philip took control of Normandy and Anjou.

The Angevin Empire has also many things working against him: Philip Augustus being the main one as he effectively worked to the destruction of that "Empire". But even if we were to get rid of him, there are still many problems and most of them lie within the Angevin Family: the sons were jealous of each other and hated their father's way of ruling (which was basically "You do this because I said you to do so"). I don't see how the familial situation can evolve without different personnalities...

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Xachiavelli

Then what would it look like? I'm assuming it would become the dominant world power, at least for a time.

this was done as a background for one of the GURPS infinte worlds powers, the Centrum

according to that game, William of the white ship doesnt drown and comes to the throne, and eventually uniting england and france into union...this eventually becomes a world spanning power, hundreds of years ahead in tech and such due to not having the medieval age last long (its never explained)
then in 1906 i think, a groupd of dissidents detonate a nuke in london, decapitating the ruling house and causing a massive global succession war which leads to both nuclear and biological attacks all over, killing off billions and leaving the rest to become nutated cannibals..

except for Terra Australis (otl australia) where a military/corporate cabal known as the Centrum take over the world (usually by wiping most of it out) turn it into a tecnocratic socialist meritocracy and then beging invading other alternate earths for their resources, and by enforcing their own principles, such as meritocracy, elimaintion of capitaslism and the universal launguage of english...

so thats one way the world could go....