WI: Polish-Hungarian Union

kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Can a Polish-Hungarian union stick as permanent as the Polish-Lithuanian Union? because I am currently doing my timeline about Henry Probus surviving, in my TL his son has a lucky marriage inheriting Hungary causing Poland and Hungary to be under the Piasts.
 
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Alcatur

Well, in theory, why not? I do not know the history of Hungary well, but I guess that it should be possible; the union could be greatly strenghtened in later XIV century by Turkish threat. Of course it means no polish-lithuanian union, and possibly more western-oriented Poland.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Alcatur said:
Well, in theory, why not? I do not know the history of Hungary well, but I guess that it should be possible; the union could be greatly strenghtened in later XIV century by Turkish threat. Of course it means no polish-lithuanian union, and possibly more western-oriented Poland.
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No Polish- Lithuanian union could mean Lithuania going Orthodox and become the ruling dynasty in Russia.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Alcatur said:
Well, in theory, why not? I do not know the history of Hungary well, but I guess that it should be possible; the union could be greatly strenghtened in later XIV century by Turkish threat. Of course it means no polish-lithuanian union, and possibly more western-oriented Poland.
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yourworstnightmare said:
No Polish- Lithuanian union could mean Lithuania going Orthodox and become the ruling dynasty in Russia.
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yourworstnightmare said:
Give Louis I a son, however Lesser Poland would probably still have to be dealt with.
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Since Poland still has Silesia in my POD, I think Upper Silesia would be important in this union because Czech Cieszyn connected Czechia and Slovakia in OTL, the same would happen between Poland and Hungary, Cieszyn will connect Hungary to Poland.

In OTL Louis I of Hungary gained supremacy in Upper Silesia because Wladyslaw Opolczyk was a vassal of Louis of Hungary this was lost when the Union of Krewo was established.
 
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Alcatur

Well, its far too fragile to survive. Poland and Lithuania union was quite weak at times, especially at the earlier period, when the interests of countries were not mutual; here its even worse. Lithuanian interests are not hungarian ones and the other way around - it would be mostly Poland helping one or the other since only it may share some interests (being in the middle).

Furthermore, Teutonic threat to Poland is far weaker, not forcing Poland into union. If the PoD is at time of Henry Probus, then Poland is propably united around 1300, and certainly with Silesia (at the time richest polish province) of which Probus was prince. Teutonic Kinghts will propably not be capable of taking Pomerania from thus strenghtened Poland, and after union with Hungary, they are far too weak to threaten the dual state. Union with Lithuania would be quite resource draining in the long run, and there no reason for it; though they may become allies (Lithuanian christianity comes from Poland, but without any stronger ties), with dual state using Lithuania as counter against teutonic knights.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Alcatur said:
Well, its far too fragile to survive. Poland and Lithuania union was quite weak at times, especially at the earlier period, when the interests of countries were not mutual; here its even worse. Lithuanian interests are not hungarian ones and the other way around - it would be mostly Poland helping one or the other since only it may share some interests (being in the middle).

Furthermore, Teutonic threat to Poland is far weaker, not forcing Poland into union. If the PoD is at time of Henry Probus, then Poland is propably united around 1300, and certainly with Silesia (at the time richest polish province) of which Probus was prince. Teutonic Kinghts will propably not be capable of taking Pomerania from thus strenghtened Poland, and after union with Hungary, they are far too weak to threaten the dual state. Union with Lithuania would be quite resource draining in the long run, and there no reason for it; though they may become allies (Lithuanian christianity comes from Poland, but without any stronger ties), with dual state using Lithuania as counter against teutonic knights.
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Henry Probus is likely to give Pomerelia to Brandenburg(who in OTL sold Pomerelia to Brandenburg) and his wife is from Brandenburg, so it will be a land locked country before it's ITTL union with Hungary.
 

seraphim74

Originally posted by kasumigenx
Henry Probus is likely to give Pomerelia to Brandenburg(who in OTL sold Pomerelia to Brandenburg) and his wife is from Brandenburg, so it will be a land locked country before it's ITTL union with Hungary.
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Why should Probus give a rich province to Brandenburg? If he had united Poland he would have been interested in keeping all the lands he had. He didn't work hard to get those lands under his rule just to give them away. What could Brandenburg offer him in return for such important territory?
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

seraphim74 said:
Originally posted by kasumigenx

Why should Probus give a rich province to Brandenburg? If he had united Poland he would have been interested in keeping all the lands he had. He didn't work hard to get those lands under his rule just to give them away. What could Brandenburg offer him in return for such important territory?
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Pomerelia is the territory of Przemysl I and Mestwin II at that time and Mestwin II made an oath of fealty earlier to Brandenburg so it would not pass to Henry Probus once Przemysl II dies.
 

seraphim74

I assumed when Probus united Poland he defeated Przemysł II and took all his lands - with Pomerelia.
As far as Mestwin's oath to Brandenburg goes, he drove away Brandenburg garrison from Gdańsk/Dazig ca 1273. And in case of Mestwin's and Przemysł's death wihout heirs, Pomerelia was supposed to go to Pomeranian dukes of Griffon dynasty. Not to Brandenburg.
 

Sharkani Rend

PLH ( Poland-Lithuania-Hungary ) in fact may "adopt" the Teutonic Knights re-directing them in South-east direction to settle bases in Walachia-Moldova vs. the Ottomans, and via them to stabily breakthrough on Black sea - Asov. Imagine the Teutons to function like PLH's "cossacks".

About the stability of the PLH Unia Troista -- in fact we have serious reasons this union to be stable, because they secure eachother's backs against the bad neighbours. Stability is matter of constitutional mechanisms eventually.
 
Petike

Petike

Hm. It is possible, but inner competition within what are effectively two powerful central European countries could tear the personal union apart in mere decades. Still, it would be interesting to see an Anjou-Piast dynasty ruling over the Polish lands. However, the union could express indecision towards Lithuania or end up undergoing a split with it (well, the Polish part would). Why ? Bear in mind that Louis actually conducted several military campaigns against Lithuania during his lifetime. Getting the Poles as well as the Lithuanians into the union is going to need some healing of old wounds and cunning, pragmatic diplomacy.
 

seraphim74

Originally posted by Petike
However, the union could express indecision towards Lithuania or end up undergoing a split with it (well, the Polish part would). Why ? Bear in mind that Louis actually conducted several military campaigns against Lithuania during his lifetime. Getting the Poles as well as the Lithuanians into the union is going to need some healing of old wounds and cunning, pragmatic diplomacy.
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And Lithuanians happily raided Poland and Masovia. That didn't stop Poles and Lithuanians from allying IOTL. All you need is a common enemy.
However, I agree that Lithuanians might be reluctant about joining PH. IOTL they pride was satisfied with their grand duke becoming king of Poland. In case of PH I do not see any Lithuanian grand duke giving up his power just to join Polish-Hungarian Union. PLH would have required elimination of most of the pretenders to Lithuanian throne and a very, very big threat to Lithuania itself.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

seraphim74 said:
I assumed when Probus united Poland he defeated Przemysł II and took all his lands - with Pomerelia.
As far as Mestwin's oath to Brandenburg goes, he drove away Brandenburg garrison from Gdańsk/Dazig ca 1273. And in case of Mestwin's and Przemysł's death wihout heirs, Pomerelia was supposed to go to Pomeranian dukes of Griffon dynasty. Not to Brandenburg.
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Henry Probus is already an ally of Brandenburg due to his marriage with Matilda of Brandenburg, I think he would use his alliance with Brandenburg against Przemysl II..
 
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