Largest Russian Empire possible

[Berus]

With any POD, what would be the largest russian empire possible, how large could it be ?

[Zuvarq]

Don't know how much farther they could expand in Islamic Turkic areas, or in West Slavic areas, or in areas in China.

But adding to whatever anyone else says after me, they could probably hold onto all of Finland, and a little bit more, up to the Scandinavian mountains.

[Elfwine]

Possible for how long?

"The maximum at its height" is not the maximum sustainable size, even if OTL is not the best Russia can do for the latter.

[Berus]

If possible it should last till the modern time.

[Elfwine]

Russia today+ the Ukraine +Belarus + some other stuff.

Finland temporally, sure, (part of?) Poland temporally, sure - but looking at long term, and assuming a POD before 1900 (so Russia holding on to OTL Soviet gains in the 20th century a little longer is out - just to narrow down possibilities here, and because this thread is in Before 1900), Russia is already colossal. Adding more territory adds more headaches and sore spots.

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Berus

If possible it should last till the modern time.

then the empire would have little time to drastically change its politically, economic and diplomatic problems before it tries to expand too far...perhaps if you forced a revolution earlier (perhaps follwing the 1848 ones in europe) the tsars could be swayed to sort out the mess of autocratic rule and start majorly investing in what they have before trying to take everything else, prior to the wars

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by jkarr

then the empire would have little time to drastically change its politically, economic and diplomatic problems before it tries to expand too far...perhaps if you forced a revolution earlier (perhaps follwing the 1848 ones in europe) the tsars could be swayed to sort out the mess of autocratic rule and start majorly investing in what they have before trying to take everything else, prior to the wars

The problem is that the tsars did invest heavily in developing Russia - just with a narrow (and entirely too understandable from their POV) focus.

The tsars putting half as much effort into universal education as big factories would have been a good idea, but a rather strange to say the least thought for such a society. At least abolishing serfdom made sense given the structures involved - once the nobility were freed of their part of state service, the basis for serfdom as supporting the nobles in doing that kinda went away.

[freethinker]

I would rather it make it temporary and at any time period that would be interesting.

[warsfan]

Hmm, is it possible they could have gotten (the rest of) Manchuria sometime in the late 19th (or even early 20th) century? It was, IIRC, pretty darn empty then, and Russia could have populated it with Russian immigrants. Considering Manchuria's OTL role as the first industrialized region if China, this could give the Russian Far East more of an economic center.

[Ariosto]

Originally Posted by warsfan

Hmm, is it possible they could have gotten (the rest of) Manchuria sometime in the late 19th (or even early 20th) century? It was, IIRC, pretty darn empty then, and Russia could have populated it with Russian immigrants. Considering Manchuria's OTL role as the first industrialized region if China, this could give the Russian Far East more of an economic center.

Manchuria is definitely one of the major possibilities available to Russia.

Alaska is another, especially given size, as long as the Americans fail to come to agreement among themselves about its worth; the Russians were afraid of losing it to the British but didn't wish to sell it to them either. If they hang on to it until Gold is found in the Yukon region, they will find value in it again.

The Cameroons is another one. Yes, Africa. A large number of Polish nobles wanted to fund and create a colony along the lines of what became German Cameroon, but it did not have much enthusiasm among the Russian Government. Indeed, it was the British who supported the venture, until they ceded the majority of the area to the German Empire at the Berlin Conference. Were the Russian Government to support the venture, it is likely it would remain out of German hands given Stefan would now have the financial support to establish a colony immediately rather than later, which proved too late.

[Elfwine]

The Yukon is on the Canadian side of the border. Not as useful for Russia as the US.

[Ariosto]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

The Yukon is on the Canadian side of the border. Not as useful for Russia as the US.

Alaska is the easiest way into the Yukon. Not many took the long trek through British Columbia, favoring transport to Skagway and trekking it from there, or to St. Michaels to take the Yukon river itself. Such conveniences are not subject to radical change.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Ariosto

Alaska is the easiest way into the Yukon. Not many took the long trek through British Columbia, favoring transport to Skagway and trekking it from there, or to St. Michaels to take the Yukon river itself. Such conveniences are not subject to radical change.

No, but for Russians, Alaska is still far, far, far away - and then there's the journey to the Yukon on top of that.

For Americans, it's not as big a deal.

[RGB]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

No, but for Russians, Alaska is still far, far, far away - and then there's the journey to the Yukon on top of that.

For Americans, it's not as big a deal.

????

They sailed around the horn at the time. Trust me, it's far.

Russia's big problem is lack of interest and lack of a large merchant marine, not distance alone. If Britain did it, Russia could too, provided it wasn't, you know, Russia.

Besides, in some insane universe, the Russians could have been there for centuries if they followed up on their OTL 17th c. explorations. Thinly spread naturally, but still with plenty of headstart over anyone else except Spain.

[Iori]

Excluding Colonial ventures (Alaska not included); Manchuria, Mongolia. Xinjiang, Moldovia, Hokkaido, Jammu and Kashmir (dependent on Russian Xinjiang existing), North Afghanistan, Iranian Azerbaijan & Northern Iran, North East Norway, Svalbard, part of Anatolia, Frontier areas of Korea and possibly some Central and South Pacific Islands.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by RGB

????

They sailed around the horn at the time. Trust me, it's far.

Russia's big problem is lack of interest and lack of a large merchant marine, not distance alone. If Britain did it, Russia could too, provided it wasn't, you know, Russia.

Besides, in some insane universe, the Russians could have been there for centuries if they followed up on their OTL 17th c. explorations. Thinly spread naturally, but still with plenty of headstart over anyone else except Spain.

As of 1898, you can cross the American continent (either Canada or the US) by rail - there's no need to go around the Horn (and I'm fairly sure the costs don't favor that either).

1848 is another story, but we're looking at the Yukon, not California.

I agree that if Russia had been there for centuries and had developed a real stake that would lead somewhere, I'm just looking at Russia retaining it a few decades more than OTL for (insert POD) when comparing it to the US. 17th Russian PODs have radical changes on a lot of things - I would suspect that at least part of OTL Western Canada gets claimed by Russia in that scenario.

Russian Columbia has a nice ring to it, although I doubt that's what the Russians themselves would use for it (correct me if I'm wrong).


On that note, looking at the distance issue from the perspective of Russia having a military presence there (the Pacific fleet, if nothing else): How overwhelming a task would that be for Russia?

Russia has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to move mountains to get what it wants, but there's only so much it can do - Peter the Great's projects for instance being a staggering task (achieved and laudibly so - at least in this context - but certainly a heavy demand on the state's resources, including the people as "resources").

[Tocomocho]

There is one of Turtledove's novels, The Two Georges, where Imperial Russia extends all the way from Valachia, Congress Poland and Finland to Alaska, and it has also gained Mongolia after China was carved in the 19th century, but apparently not East Turkestan or Manchuria. Yeah, it's a gigantic Imperial Russia and I'm arguing that a bigger one would be as plausible, if not more. You could also have Persia/Iran implode completely and then the British would have agreed to partition it with the Russians in order to avoid them swallowing the whole thing.

[RGB]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Russian Columbia has a nice ring to it, although I doubt that's what the Russians themselves would use for it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Highly unlikely to use Columbia, I think, but they followed both western naming patterns and also native-language ones. Alaska as a name is certainly taken from the locals. They might actually call things "Haida" "Salishia" and "Yukon".

On that note, looking at the distance issue from the perspective of Russia having a military presence there (the Pacific fleet, if nothing else): How overwhelming a task would that be for Russia?

Needs a better diplomatic situation I think to be able to sail freely. But yes, a very serious undertaking. On the other hand, early on there's no competitors of any kind at all. If they can get some three-four "western" ships up and running between Kamchatka and Alaska by 1720 or so...

They built ships on the spot in Russian America too. They just had a lot of improvised techniques due to lacking any kind of industry there, so were rarely very long-lasting.

But yes, just showing possibilities.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by RGB

Highly unlikely to use Columbia, I think, but they followed both western naming patterns and also native-language ones. Alaska as a name is certainly taken from the locals. They might actually call things "Haida" "Salishia" and "Yukon".

That would be interesting. Especially given that it may lead to the English form being transliterated from the Russian form of the native language form - and come out quite weird.

Needs a better diplomatic situation I think to be able to sail freely. But yes, a very serious undertaking. On the other hand, early on there's no competitors of any kind at all. If they can get some three-four "western" ships up and running between Kamchatka and Alaska by 1720 or so...

They built ships on the spot in Russian America too. They just had a lot of improvised techniques due to lacking any kind of industry there, so were rarely very long-lasting.

But yes, just showing possibilities.

Yeah, Russia in a position to look into this (as in, with the interest and the spare resources) has a pretty open field - and while the late 19th century US is in a better position than Russia, none of the other European powers are, so Russia might get something lasting if it starts fast enough.

And speaking for myself as a Californian, a Russian "California" would be cool. California offers enough, gold ignored even, to be worth some trouble.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

That would be interesting. Especially given that it may lead to the English form being transliterated from the Russian form of the native language form - and come out quite weird.

Or English might just adopt the Russian name outright, afterall that's what happened IOTL, with the name Alaska (Аляска) being a Russian name derived from the Aleut Alaxsxaq that was directly borrowed and incorporated into English.