AH Challenge:Hebrew Kingdom of Israel that survives to present times

[Elidor]

I know it is going to take a lot of PODs, but can we have a (non-ASB) AH in which the Ancient Kingdom of Jerusalem survives to present times?

[rhino3d]

it survives in the media

[orbeyonde]

Originally Posted by Elidor

I know it is going to take a lot of PODs, but can we have a (non-ASB) AH in which the Ancient Kingdom of Jerusalem survives to present times?

Only way I can see this as happening is if the Roman Empire adopts Judaism instead of Christianity. IIRC jewish prostelytizing was quite widespread 2 thousand years ago. The prostelytizing only stopped after the Romans threatened the jews to stop or be severly punished.

What if the prostelytizing continued and jews became a greater and greater minority within the roman empire until judaism became the official state religion (possibly under Constantine) who made the new capital of the Roman Empire (maybe now called the Israeli Empire) Jerusalem. The greatest city in the Israeli Empire is now Constantinople (situated where modern day Tel-Aviv is located)

I know this is quite a stretch, but its the only way I can see a surviving Kingdom of Jerusalem. Israel could never have survived as an independent country without greater outside support. Simply too many large and powerful enemeies surrounded it.

[orbeyonde]

Originally Posted by rhino3d

it survives in the media

huh? what does that mean?

[Elidor]

Originally Posted by orbeyonde

Only way I can see this as happening is if the Roman Empire adopts Judaism instead of Christianity. IIRC jewish prostelytizing was quite widespread 2 thousand years ago. The prostelytizing only stopped after the Romans threatened the jews to stop or be severly punished.

What if the prostelytizing continued and jews became a greater and greater minority within the roman empire until judaism became the official state religion (possibly under Constantine) who made the new capital of the Roman Empire (maybe now called the Israeli Empire) Jerusalem. The greatest city in the Israeli Empire is now Constantinople (situated where modern day Tel-Aviv is located)

I know this is quite a stretch, but its the only way I can see a surviving Kingdom of Jerusalem. Israel could never have survived as an independent country without greater outside support. Simply too many large and powerful enemeies surrounded it.

Yes, that is quite possible... although I was thinking of an AH where Persia is more powerful and Israel survives by playing Romans vs Persians and being a buffer state rather a Roman Province.

But yours is rather interesting, what hapopens of Jesus and Christianity... will Christianity now exist as a cult within Judaism?

This Israeli Empire iconcept is s interesting, and I am trying to think of ways to make it resist rhe Arabs. Since its captial is in Jerusalem, the Empire might try to conquer the Arabs to the south for the sake of the security of the Imperial Capital, provided that it does so before Mohammed, there could be no Islam, or it could exist as a minor cult.

TTL's Belisarius might conquer the Arabs and Persian instead of going west.

[orbeyonde]

Originally Posted by Elidor

Yes, that is quite possible... although I was thinking of an AH where Persia is more powerful and Israel survives by playing Romans vs Persians and being a buffer state rather a Roman Province.

But yours is rather interesting, what hapopens of Jesus and Christianity... will Christianity now exist as a cult within Judaism?

This Israeli Empire iconcept is s interesting, and I am trying to think of ways to make it resist rhe Arabs. Since its captial is in Jerusalem, the Empire might try to conquer the Arabs to the south for the sake of the security of the Imperial Capital, provided that it does so before Mohammed, there could be no Islam, or it could exist as a minor cult.

TTL's Belisarius might conquer the Arabs and Persian instead of going west.

Christianity either never existed or remained a small cult group.

With no Christianity, there is no Islam. The real enemy of the Israeli Empire are the Persians and later on the Mongols.

The Israelis could convert the Arab population to Judaism since the Israeli Empire is now much closer to the Arab populations than was the old Roman Empire.

[Elidor]

Yeah, the Israeli Empire will have a big challenge holding out against the Turks, Persians and the Mongols. But if the convert Enough Arabs, they could hold the rudimentary areas of their Empire.

[MarkA]

Christianity IS a cult of Judaism. I suppose you mean Paulician christianity.

[George Carty]

Originally Posted by orbeyonde

What if the prostelytizing continued and jews became a greater and greater minority within the roman empire until judaism became the official state religion (possibly under Constantine) who made the new capital of the Roman Empire (maybe now called the Israeli Empire) Jerusalem. The greatest city in the Israeli Empire is now Constantinople (situated where modern day Tel-Aviv is located)

I know this is quite a stretch, but its the only way I can see a surviving Kingdom of Jerusalem. Israel could never have survived as an independent country without greater outside support. Simply too many large and powerful enemeies surrounded it.

Even this is implausible - any Roman Emperor would have to be insane to move the capital to Jerusalem!

Jerusalem is vulnerable to blockade as it is an inland city with no navigable river. Also, just as Dixie is the US Army's main recruiting ground, the Eastern Roman Empire's main recruitment area was the Balkans, which is hopelessly far away from Jerusalem. By contrast Roman Syria had the rubbishest legions in the Empire.

The Balkan legions would have probably revolted and either marched on Jerusalem to overthrow the Emperor stupid enough to set up shop there, or they would have seceded, leaving a rump Jerusalem empire which would have been as hopelessly dependent on foreign mercenaries as the Hellenistic states or the Fatimid Caliphate.

[1978]

Originally Posted by rhino3d

it survives in the media

It's underground.

Maybe it survived is some corner of Africa. Or maybe it WAS Affica: a Jewish Mitzrayim (Egypt)?

[MerryPrankster]

For starters, is this the Davidic-Solomon United Kingdom? If so, the POD would have to be in Solomon's Day (900-ish BC).

At the absolute latest, it would have to be before the Assyrians occupy the Northern Kingdom and deport most of its population (not sure when that actually was).

Now, with a surviving kingdom of Judah, the POD would have to be in the First Century.