Official TL-191 Discussion Thread

[Abhakhazia]

Here's a thread for all TL-191 material.

Stuff like-

• Your favorite character
• Stories
• Maps
• Flags
• Parts of the books
• Your favorite book
• Implausiblities
• Complaints
• Other stuff about the books

[d32123]

My #1 complaint (apart from the obnoxious parallelism, convergence, and butterfly genocide) is the fact that Turtledove didn't write in a Mormon PoV character.

Oh yeah, and uberwank Japan managing to bomb L.A.

Loved the series, though.

[Danth]

I find all of turtledoves works misguided American patriotism. Like a giant F U to everyother country

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by Danth

I find all of turtledoves works misguided American patriotism. Like a giant F U to everyother country

What about Videssos? Or the Athenian Merchant's series or The War Between the Provinces, or the Opening of the World?

[Daaharu]

I read TL-191 a few years ago, mostly even before I was lurking here...

My favorite character was Abner Dowling, just because he was so easy to sympathize with. Though my favorite book was, of course, How Few Remain—for whatever reason, besides the fact that the series grew less plausible the further along it got, Turtledove decided to describe the sex and violence in a more sanitized way in the rest of the books, which detracted from the immersion and realism for me.

[CandyDragon]

Haven't read it. Probably never will.

[Abhakhazia]

Originally Posted by Daaharu

I read TL-191 a few years ago, mostly even before I was lurking here...

My favorite character was Abner Dowling, just because he was so easy to sympathize with. Though my favorite book was, of course, How Few Remain—for whatever reason, besides the fact that the series grew less plausible the further along it got, Turtledove decided to describe the sex and violence in a more sanitized way in the rest of the books, which detracted from the immersion and realism for me.

Everybody goes crazy of HFR, but I didn't like it all that much. Great War was probably better. I liked Samuel Clemens's viewpoints though.

I should post my "TL-191 Characters in OTL" list that make. Would you guys like that?

[Daaharu]

Originally Posted by Abhakhazia

Everybody goes crazy of HFR, but I didn't like it all that much. Great War was probably better. I liked Samuel Clemens's viewpoints though.

I should post my "TL-191 Characters in OTL" list that make. Would you guys like that?

I'd definitely like to see that. Being new, I haven't had a chance to see it before.

[pieman97405]

I really like the first few books, but once the second Great War started it just had a bit to much parallelism for me.
I also really disliked not being able to see things going on in Europe. The American front was meant to be a repeat of WW2, Europe seemed like a vastly different war that would have been fun to read.

[Abhakhazia]

John Abell- Joined the Army in 1903, served under Theodore Roosevelt in the Spanish-American War. A major in WWI, leading a drive through France, ended up being shot during the last few minutes of the war.
Hosiah Blackford- Not meeting Lincoln on a train, he heads back to North Dakota, where he eventually bought a farm. Became active in his local Episcopal Church, being a studious man, needing something to occupy his intellectual abilities, he eventually became a deacon, and ministered to the poor of Minneapolis during the depression. Died there, three days before his ordination to the priesthood.
Luther Bliss- A racist Kentucky police officer, who arrested blacks for simply "milling about on city property" in Covington, and later Louisville, Kentucky.
Sam Carsten- Joined the navy after the Spanish-American War, and served in the Phillippines until World War II. Married a Filipino, and had two kids. Always hated his assignment, but turned out fine. Died in the Japanese invasion of the Phillippines.
Abner Dowling- Nicknamed "The Tank" he was a sergeant in The Spanish-American War, and later a major in World War I. After which, he retired from the army, ending up working as a factory floorman in Providence, Rhode Island. Worked there until the depression, when he lost his job. Finally deciding to move out to California, where he worked as a manager for an orange grove. Stayed there until he died in 1959.
Cincinnatus Driver- Born in Kentucky, moved north to Chicago to "bring himself up in the world". Working in, and later becoming a floorman of a factory during the depression, he noteably turning down a bitter, racist Virginian begging for work, Jake Featherston.

[MrHuman]

I've never read it. So am I getting banned now or what?

[EdM]

Originally Posted by Danth

I find all of turtledoves works misguided American patriotism. Like a giant F U to everyother country

Like his Disunited States of America? I find how the states *still* marched across the continent, with an English-speaking California to be *very* implausible. And he doesn't mention the midsection (I guess it's still flyover country in that book) and he keeps the highway numbers the same which is very annoying. (Highway 77 for our Interstate 77? Really, Harry?) He does that in the TL191 books, too.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I liked the series because the CPs really won this time

Of course there are multiple ASBs milling around - especially the mirror effect (CSA = 3rd Reich)

As it is the first Turtledove i read (and to date I only added the new Hitkers war series) I enjoyed the characters (some keep telling me characters are stereotypes used throughout his books )

I would have liked to read how T. himself would have developed the Timeline into our days...

The US occupying the CSA acted quite barbaric (shooting hostages and so on... - seems OTL reconstruction inflated...)

[Daaharu]

Originally Posted by Richter von Manthofen

I would have liked to read how T. himself would have developed the Timeline into our days...

There'd probably be a lot of parallelism (not that I personally believe that's a bad thing), with a German-American Cold War which mirrors that between the US and USSR in OTL. There'd be some Korea analogue, and a Vietnam analogue, though they may be moved to Africa, the Caribbean, or even Europe.

The one rogue factor is Japan, as they remained pretty strong after the war. You may end up with a three-way cold war.

The space race would be interesting. If I recall, Germany still retained most of their scientists, so they would likely be ahead of the United States starting off—but just how far?

[Nerdlinger]

I suppose this topic falls under this thread's domain: How could Featherston have done better in the Second Great War? Could the CS have won?

A rather obvious change in CS strategy would have been to take advantage of the black work force rather than exterminating them (and in doing so, wiping out about 1/3 of their own country's population).

On the military level, the real trick was to deliver a devastating blow to the US as fast as possible so as not to give the American industrial monster time to recover and overwhelm the Rebs as in the First Great War. Blackbeard was a stunning success, even though Jake made the miscalculation that splitting the US proper in two would cause the Yanks to throw in the towel. CS forces then headed east toward Pittsburgh and made it their Stalingrad. Would the Confederacy have fared better if they had for example, drove northwest from Sandusky to Pontiac? This seemed to be the primary location for barrel production.

What if Featherston had given FitzBelmont a chance to work on developing the bomb the first time they met rather than blowing him off? If the CS were to produce a few superbombs well before the US did, that would go a long way toward increasing the Confederates' odds of victory.

Suppose they managed to knock off Morrell, like they tried to? How much would that have hurt the US?

What else could have been done? Was the cause lost from the start?

[pieman97405]

Originally Posted by Daaharu

There'd probably be a lot of parallelism (not that I personally believe that's a bad thing), with a German-American Cold War which mirrors that between the US and USSR in OTL. There'd be some Korea analogue, and a Vietnam analogue, though they may be moved to Africa, the Caribbean, or even Europe.

The one rogue factor is Japan, as they remained pretty strong after the war. You may end up with a three-way cold war.

The space race would be interesting. If I recall, Germany still retained most of their scientists, so they would likely be ahead of the United States starting off—but just how far?

I don't think Germany and American would have entered a cold war. THings could have cooled between them, but I think at worst it would have become like the relationship OTL America has with Norway.

[Daaharu]

Originally Posted by pieman97405

I don't think Germany and American would have entered a cold war. THings could have cooled between them, but I think at worst it would have become like the relationship OTL America has with Norway.

If I recall, there was some suggestion made of relations worsening between the two nations as Settling Accounts was concluding. Even if they wouldn't realistically enter a cold war, if we're talking Turtledove here, it would have likely been the case, so as to draw a stronger parallel to OTL.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

On the military level, the real trick was to deliver a devastating blow to the US as fast as possible so as not to give the American industrial monster time to recover and overwhelm the Rebs as in the First Great War. Blackbeard was a stunning success, even though Jake made the miscalculation that splitting the US proper in two would cause the Yanks to throw in the towel. CS forces then headed east toward Pittsburgh and made it their Stalingrad. Would the Confederacy have fared better if they had for example, drove northwest from Sandusky to Pontiac? This seemed to be the primary location for barrel production.

I remember back in 2004 arguing on other boards how the St. Clair River would be the target of Blackbeard Relaunched. Cutting off the rail links between the United States west of the Ohio Occupied Zone and southern Ontario, cutting off Great Lakes traffic at Detroit, destroying the industries in and around that city, etc. To me it made more sense than attacking Pittsburgh because it had lots of steel mills in it and hoping that would cause the US leadership to see reason.

Originally Posted by Daaharu

If I recall, there was some suggestion made of relations worsening between the two nations as Settling Accounts was concluding. Even if they wouldn't realistically enter a cold war, if we're talking Turtledove here, it would have likely been the case, so as to draw a stronger parallel to OTL.

No, they were getting stronger. The Dewey Doctrine was supposed to be the key new link.

I can't see there being a cold war anywhere close to resembling OTL's, and no, Turtledove "being Turtledove" isn't a valid reason for there to be one.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

I remember back in 2004 arguing on other boards how the St. Clair River would be the target of Blackbeard Relaunched. Cutting off the rail links between the United States west of the Ohio Occupied Zone and southern Ontario, cutting off Great Lakes traffic at Detroit, destroying the industries in and around that city, etc. To me it made more sense than attacking Pittsburgh because it had lots of steel mills in it and hoping that would cause the US leadership to see reason.

So, what was the reception for the idea? Would it make the US say uncle?

[Daaharu]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

No, they were getting stronger. The Dewey Doctrine was supposed to be the key new link.

I can't see there being a cold war anywhere close to resembling OTL's, and no, Turtledove "being Turtledove" isn't a valid reason for there to be one.

I took a look back at the last chapter of In at the Death—while they are talking about how strong the alliance is, that's largely to be expected in the wake of such a devastating conflict, and there is a hint of doubt as to whether it will remain that strong. The Soviet Union and the United States were still on somewhat-friendly terms as our Second World War was wrapping up.

Anyway, do you have anything to contribute as to how you see Turtledove continuing the series? I would be surprised to see him go off in some whole new direction when he's so closely paralleled OTL up until this point.