WI: Octavian died before Caesar

When Julius Caesar was assassinated his will named his great-nephew Octavian as his principle heir. Octavian would later become Augustus, first Emperor of the Roman Empire. Now Octavian was an odd choice of heir, because he had very little political or military experience. The only military experience he had was accompanying Caesar on his last campaign in Spain. On this campaign Octavian was shipwrecked and had to cross enemy territory to reach Caesar, something that impressed him greatly. So what if Octavian had been killed when his ship crashed or when he was crossing enemy territory. Who would Caesar have named his heir with Octavian dead? What would happen to the republic? To Cleopatra and Caesar's son Caesarion? To Marc Antony and the Caesarion Party? To his assassins?
 
Caesarion and Cleopatra will never take power in Rome. Caesarion is not considered Roman enough and his birth is doubted by many Romans. This is why Caesar did not publicly claim him. Cleopatra isn't even a Roman citizen. So this is never happening. People would be rioting in the Forum.

Marc Antony might have a chance if he dumps Cleopatra.
 
Caesarion and Cleopatra will never take power in Rome. Caesarion is not considered Roman enough and his birth is doubted by many Romans. This is why Caesar did not publicly claim him. Cleopatra isn't even a Roman citizen. So this is never happening. People would be rioting in the Forum.

Marc Antony might have a chance if he dumps Cleopatra.

Marc Antony hadn't taken up with Cleo yet. When Caesar was murdered she was still with him. And I always thought Ceasarion wasn't acknowledged because he was too young to do anything and would be under the influence of his foreign mother.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Marcus Antonius is the gut response, but a lot of people didn't like him at all. He was a poor administrator and a bit of a douche with a violent streak. Not that Octavius was sunshine and rainbows, but MA's power seems to have rested on him being Caesar's pet thug and tapping a queen/atm.
 
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Marc Antony hadn't taken up with Cleo yet. When Caesar was murdered she was still with him. And I always thought Ceasarion wasn't acknowledged because he was too young to do anything and would be under the influence of his foreign mother.

Brainfart, my bad. But honestly think about it. This is only half a century after the Social War and the events preceding it. If the Romans were that reluctant to give ITALIANS just the Roman Citizenship. There's no way in hell that they'd let a half- Oriental of somewhat questionable birth be Dictator of Rome. They put up with Caesar for long enough, but he was Roman that's different.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If Caesar's assassination is not butterflied away, the Caesarian forces will have no central figure around which to rally. Antony would try but, as we can see from OTL, would fail in the end. Brutus and Cassius might therefore go down in history at the heroes and liberators of the Republic.
 
Brainfart, my bad. But honestly think about it. This is only half a century after the Social War and the events preceding it. If the Romans were that reluctant to give ITALIANS just the Roman Citizenship. There's no way in hell that they'd let a half- Oriental of somewhat questionable birth be Dictator of Rome. They put up with Caesar for long enough, but he was Roman that's different.

With Octavian dead, would Caesar update his will to include Ceasarion. After all Caesar had no other close male relatives. The son of the murdered Dictator could be rallying point, with perhaps Calpurnia raising him to be a proper Roman. After all he was half roman by blood, but he could be raised to be a Roman in spirit, or something like that.

If Caesar's assassination is not butterflied away, the Caesarian forces will have no central figure around which to rally. Antony would try but, as we can see from OTL, would fail in the end. Brutus and Cassius might therefore go down in history at the heroes and liberators of the Republic.

Would Octavian's early death really butterfly Caesar's assassination? If anything it mite make his assassination happen earlier. With no other close male relative, Ceasarion would be the presumed heir. As for a central rallying point, as I said earlier, why not Ceasarion? After all the son of the murdered Dictator could be a powerful image. In the integrum, however couldn't Antony, Lepidus, and others lead the armies?
 
With Octavian dead, would Caesar update his will to include Ceasarion. After all Caesar had no other close male relatives. The son of the murdered Dictator could be rallying point, with perhaps Calpurnia raising him to be a proper Roman. After all he was half roman by blood, but he could be raised to be a Roman in spirit, or something like that.



Would Octavian's early death really butterfly Caesar's assassination? If anything it mite make his assassination happen earlier. With no other close male relative, Ceasarion would be the presumed heir. As for a central rallying point, as I said earlier, why not Ceasarion? After all the son of the murdered Dictator could be a powerful image. In the integrum, however couldn't Antony, Lepidus, and others lead the armies?


First Caesar never intended make Octavian his political heir (hew was only adopted and make heir of Caesar's private fortune) and in Caesar mind, if he ever thinking that, that heir will be most likely Antonius or Lepidus
You all need to remind who Caesar powers was only for his life and can not be inherited...
Second
Caesar had at least another two great-nephews and several other relatives (Julia, the mother of Mark Antony and his brothers, was a cousin of Caesar and her brother also had children).

Is really unlikely who Caesar can think to named his heir Caesarion because he have not the Roman citizenship, was illegitimate and his mother not only was not Roman but also a foreign queen.

I think who if Octavian will die before Caesar we can have three options: a) Casar private (to one of his other relatives, named heir in his will as OTL Octavian) and political (to one of his more powerful and well know supporters, most likely Mark Antony or Lepidus) heritage going to different people or b)Caesar decide to name Mark Antony (who is both his relative and one of his most powerful men and supporter) c) Caesar do not named any of his relatives as his main heir (or he do not left a will or he divided his fortune between many relatives without adopt anyone) and Mark Antony or Lepidus (or both) take powers in Rome
 
Hello. I just discovered this forum and read quite a lot of the threads. I am gladly coming in.

One of the point to keep in mine si that, as Isabella wrote, is that roman legacies were only about privante matters as are today's legacies. The republic and the political life could be dealt only through legal acts (laws and decrees). For exemple, a law had ben passed which stipulated that Caesar's son, if he had one, would become great pontiff when his father ans current great pontiff dies.

Other important point : roman adult aristocrats probably always had a legacy in which, if they had no son through marriage they designated who would inherit their properties.*
Julius Caesar had (first ?) made Pompey the great his heir (from the marriage of his daughter Julia with Pompey in 59 BCE to the outbreak of the civil war in 49 BCE or to Pompey's death in 48 BCE).
Then, Caesar's main private heir probably was his cousin Sextus Julius Caesar. This Sextus was the great-son of annoter Sextus Julius Caesar who was consul in 91 BCE and was the brother of our Caesar's father. this younger Sextus was one of Caesar's lieutnants in the civil war and was à governor of Syria in 46 BCE when he was murdered by à seditious officer. The augustan "historiography" of course did not hint at thé part Sextus played before Octavian. It would have tarnished the legend of the predestined savior of Rome. But it is significant that in the few references to Sextus, his personnality is described in unfavourable terms.

So, if Octavius had died in 45 BCE, and if Caesar had still wanted to chose a main heir (historically, Caesar's legacy provided that Octavian inherit 75%, that his Quintus Pedius inherit 12,5% and that his other grand nephewLucius Pinarius Scarpus inherit 12,5%), it can be assumed that Caesar would have shared his inheritance between these two closest relatives. Would he have also adopted Pedius which was a lieutnant in the war of the Gauls, the same way hé did for Octavian ? Possible but not sure. And Pedius did not have Caesar's talent.

But I can not see any reason why Caesar would have adopted Anthony or Lepidus.
Firstly, Anthony was only a very distant relative of Caesar : his mother was of course a Julia, but the common ancestor between Anthony and Caesar was born not later than around 250 BCE). Besides, as far as Anthony's cousin Lucius Julius Caesar (the son of the homonymous consul of 64 BCE) is concerned, he was such an irreconcilable and cruel enemy of our Caesar (contrarily to his own father who served Caesar and worked for reconciliation) that Caesar's soldiers put him to death in 46 BCE when he was taken *prisoner.
Secondly, Caesar in fact did name neiger Anthony nor Lepidus in his legacy, whereas he named his friend (and murderer) Decimus Junius Brutus (a distant cousin of the famous Marcus Junius Brutus) as a guardian for a possible minor son of Caesar (if he had had one with Calpurnia) and as second rank heir (if Octavius, Pedius and Pinarius all died heirless). So if he did not, I don't think he would have named either Anthony or Lepidus as his heir.

So, if Octavius had died before Caesar and Caesar had still died on 44 BCE, and if either Pedius or Pinarius Scarpus or both had inherited, or even been adopted, one can imagine a situation quite similar to the one Rome knew after Sulla's death. Sulla's only son, born around 85 BCE was never a prominant political figure because he had not the talent for it. In their thirties, Caesar, Cato, Cicero, Claudius, Curio, Ahenobarbus, Cassius and others had shown their talent on the field and/or in the political arena. Not the son of Sulla.

Well, neither Pedius nor Pinarius Scarpus was a political genius.

So one can guess that Anthony would not have faced, in 44 and in the first half of 43 BCE, the absolute cynicism of Octavius who strove by all means to undermine the position of Anthony as natural political heir of the caesarian "party" by pushing very hardly for revenge over the tyrannicides and for the re-ignition of the civil war while Anthony was strugling to maintain concordia.

Without the split caused by Octavius in the caesarian party, Cicero would not have had any ground for playing one against another. Then, the caesarian party having remained united and allied to the moderates, there would probably not have been the circumstances which, in 43 BCE, drove to Anthony's being outlawed and permitted Cassius and Brutus to take control of the provinces and armies of the east by surprise.
For a few years at least, there would have been civil peace under the patronage of Anthony, the dominant figure of the republic. There would have been a competitive cooperation in the dominant caesarian-anthonian party faction. And progressively, as occured with the sullan-optimate faction in the 70's and 60's BCE, the links between the prominant leaders would have loosened. New factions would have formed inside and beyond the caesarian-anthonian coalition and ...
 
I think you're underestimating Pedius and Pinarius. They showed foresight and political savvy wavering their share of the inheritance in Octavian's favour, allowing him to carry out the will's distributions to the Roman people. Pedius was Octavian's choice to share the consulate and was responsible for the Lex Pedia. He died shorty afterward. His son became quaestor around this time and married a Valeria (Messalina) before disappearing from record. Pinarius commanded legions, was acclaimed Imperator and played a crucial role in Antony's defeat, before also disappearing.

As Caesar either one could well have accomplished much more.
 
I don't agree since :
- Pedius died in 43 because, it is said, he couldn't bear the infamy of having to carry under his own name the law of proscription decided by Anthony, Lepidus and Octavius. Not a leader but rather à follower.
- Pinarius, then governor of Cyrenaïca, defected to his cousin Octavius only when it had become obvious to everybody that Anthony was doomed. Not a leader either.
 
I don't agree since :
- Pedius died in 43 because, it is said, he couldn't bear the infamy of having to carry under his own name the law of proscription decided by Anthony, Lepidus and Octavius. Not a leader but rather à follower.
- Pinarius, then governor of Cyrenaïca, defected to his cousin Octavius only when it had become obvious to everybody that Anthony was doomed. Not a leader either.

Do you have a source for that? Where I'm reading Pedius involvement in the Lex Pedia is active, not nominal.

Pinarius was acclaimed Imperator at some point, so not too shabby. As I said, he had already supported Octavian in the direct aftermath of Caesar's death - his appointment in Cyrenaica could well have been something of a concession to Octavian.
 
For the first point several scolars wrote it (Cosme for example), based on Appian's book IV of the civil wars.

For the second point, ancient sources date Pinarius' change of sides to well after Actium.
 
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