AH: A world without Jesus Christ

[Grouchio]

Christianity. One of the most influential religions in the world today. Almost a forth of the global population follows it. Hundreds of different sects dot the demographics in their own different interpretations of worshiping god. Imagine if Christianity, per-say, never existed. Let's say that Jesus Christ (he existed dammit!) was born dead. Or that his parents decided to stay in Bethlehem and were thus victims of the Massacre of the Innocents along with their child. Without Jesus Christ, there would be no disciples, no council of Nicaea, no Christianity. What would be the effects of this PoD be up until the present day? I would like an ATL story out of this; we don't have many Roman PoDs these days...

[galileo-034]

I've done a TL with christianism nipped in the bud. My POD is that Jesus instead of becoming the preacher of mutual love we know becomes one of these common agitators and self-proclaimed messiahs who called for an uprising against the Romans.
Read 'Gods and Empires'.

[d32123]

Some other religion rises up from the region and spreads across Europe.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by d32123

Some other religion rises up from the region and spreads across Europe.

Celebrating Mithras instead of Christmas.

[Herzen's love-child]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Celebrating Mithras instead of Christmas.

& Irving Berlin eventually composes "I'm Dreaming of a Red Mithras"...

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Herzen's love-child

& Irving Berlin eventually composes "I'm Dreaming of a Red Mithras"...

"If you've been a good boy, Father Mithras will come down the chimney and slit the throat of your pet bull"

[Ganesha]

Originally Posted by d32123

Some other religion rises up from the region and spreads across Europe.

Why do you think that's inevitable? Were there cultural or demographic factors at play? How often do new religions arise? Why does one have to come out of Judaea in the first century?

Cheers,
Ganesha

[Monopolist]

Personally, I think it more interesting and plausible (and more to what the OP's looking for) to examine how Mediterranean polytheism might evolve without competition from monotheistic Abrahamic sects....

[Ganesha]

Originally Posted by Monopolist

Personally, I think it more interesting and plausible (and more to what the OP's looking for) to examine how Mediterranean polytheism might evolve without competition from monotheistic Abrahamic sects....

And? How might it have evolved? I'm actually really curious. I have absolutely no idea, except that the cults of Mithras and Isis were on the rise.

Cheers,
Ganesha

[Monopolist]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

And? How might it have evolved? I'm actually really curious. I have absolutely no idea, except that the cults of Mithras and Isis were on the rise.

Cheers,
Ganesha

Well and honestly, I'm in the same boat you are - if I had a great big idea, I would've posted it to get the ball rolling with that train of thought. So I guess sorry for misleading you that if you thought I had real, sound thoughts for this. Very honestly, I don't know enough about Roman religion in the early days of the empire to examine what might be the future of it, besides that it was still big on the Hellenized Pantheon, but was increasingly accepting foreign cults, like Isis and Cybele, and maybe Mithras (I'm not sure that Mithras was that popular at 1 AD, but that's more to my ignorance then anything.), signs which to me seem to lead to it being more likely that polytheism would continue. I have some thoughts with a POD in 207 BC without much Rome and a lot more Carthage/Gaul/Greece (because I spent a hell of a lot of time thinking about it for my timeline), but not much after the founding of the Roman Empire and all, because those two Mediterraneans are very different places. Maybe Rome just goes the rout it sort of did OTL, with the "cult of the week" sort of thing going on. I think it'd be interesting to see the evolution of the Hellenized Roman Pantheon, but I don't really know what to make of it beyond that.

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Ganesha

And? How might it have evolved? I'm actually really curious. I have absolutely no idea, except that the cults of Mithras and Isis were on the rise.

Cheers,
Ganesha

I think one of the reason why mithras is often mentioned is that there appear to have been an effort to unite the empire using religion. Christianity was into procelystism and seemed flexible enough to fit the bill so in the absence of it, another monotheistic religion might have taken its place.

Thta being said, if christianity stays one cult among others or never arise in the first place, a syncretic polytheistic *ideal* might have spread instead as the romans were already in the habit of seing native deities as simply the local "incarnation" of roman ones. Without the strong centralised clergy however, europe might not have united culturaly the way it did in OTL or if it did, it would have been based on different values.

[Anaxagoras]

Well, off the top of my head...

No Islam, either. Butterflies would make sure that Mohammed is never born. Even if he was, he was deeply influenced by Christianity IOTL and without Christian influences he would never have developed the core ideas of Islam.

Good news for the Roman Empire, I suppose. IOTL, the rise of Christianity sapped the loyalty of subjects to the Empire, distracted anti-Christian Roman authorities to the true threats, and made it easier for barbarians to appropriate territory by coming to terms with the local Christian authorities.

Then again, as a devout Christian, I think Jesus was coming one way or the other, in any conceivable TL.

[MerryPrankster]

I don't think Mithraism would replace Christianity because it was limited only to high-status men.

Maybe the cult of Isis? It was more inclusive. In an earlier discussion Carlton Bach (at least I think it was him) said the Iside religion did not have a "persecutory meme" pushing it to wipe out competitors, but I imagine its leaders could take offense to Jewish teachings about the Exodus.

("You think your desert god could dare challenge the gods of the Red Land and the Black? BLASPHEMER!")

[oshron]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I don't think Mithraism would replace Christianity because it was limited only to high-status men.

Maybe the cult of Isis? It was more inclusive. In an earlier discussion Carlton Bach (at least I think it was him) said the Iside religion did not have a "persecutory meme" pushing it to wipe out competitors, but I imagine its leaders could take offense to Jewish teachings about the Exodus.

("You think your desert god could dare challenge the gods of the Red Land and the Black? BLASPHEMER!")

now that would certainly be interesting. d'you suppose that the Isis cult could eventually become monotheistic? while this may sound like im trying to say that dominant monotheism is an inevitability, there's actually OTL precedent: evidence exists that, in the ancient period, some greeks were beginning to regard Zeus as the one and only god, and that that may have been one of the origins of monotheistic Judaism (because, aside from the fact that Zeus was an adulterer, he and God are roughly similar)

[Clandango]

Similarities between Yahweh nd Zeus is basically confined to their portrayals in art. As for Isis, her cult claimed that she was all of the female deities.

[Faeelin]

I wonder if it's just another sect of Judaism which takes off. You already had Hellenistic Jews writing about how their faith was logical, and there were plenty of Greeks interested in Judaism (and ended up as the early Christians).

The moment when Constantine gets circumcised will be, ah, interesting. But maybe the end result is for the Rabbi of Rome to chant, every Passover, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

[yourworstnightmare]

Would be interesting if the Isis cult could be more influential without Christianity.

[Space Oddity]

If I may chime in on the 'Mithras' subject--really the 'Mithras would have taken the place of Christianity' meme is--well, wrong. When push comes to shove, the cult of Mithras seems to have been essentially the Roman equivalent of the Freemasons--a cult/social club based on what Roman bureaucrats believed to be Eastern religious practices, followed by the elite, with little popular backing. Not much of a threat to Christianity, I'm afraid.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

All this talk about "competition" between different cults! Most cults weren't consciously trying to obtain more followers. In Mithraism, they only permitted converts whom were male and from a military background. Not exactly the basis of a future world religion, even if Christianity loaned some its paraphernalia and rituals from them. Some cults were, at best, Henotheistic. Most could only exist within the framework of a Polytheistic culture. Although, Trinitarian Christianity, as an inheritance of their Pagan past, would develop its milieu of saintly cults.

Hell, even different Christian cults differed too much to cohesively compete for adherents. It was really this one particular group who had secret connections with people in positions in power. In one case, the mother and sister of a future emperor were practising Christians. And when he took power, this particular sect of Christianity was not only legalized, but was given preferential treatment by Constantine, who, though not a Christian himself, was interested enough that he had some of their leading bishops and presbyters hired in his civil administration, and he would even preside on the Council of Nicea to help them determine, among other things, their religious orthodoxy.

It was patronage that helped Christianity to get to the top. Less so its "teachings". And when this particular sect got its taste of power, it began working in a away that they could stay in the favour of the imperial regime for good. If not for Constantine, Christianity would be lucky to find the patronage of another secret admirer or sympathizer within imperial court-circles who gets the crown.

[von hitchofen]

Thor and Odin will be pleased, and Anubis will be back through the Stargate to claim his rightful place...

and all hail the great god Baal...

you're spoilt for choice, really